>> nobody knows what is the "own" noumena? what the fuck are you talking about? A phenomena is anything subject to empirical verification. To some, a noumenon is the intellectual conception of the thing in itself; others define it as anything beyond the realm of direct empirical verification. Since all we can discuss are phenomena, everything else (the world without us to perceive it) is an intellectual construct, hence an act of belief or imagination. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html