In a message dated 6/9/2012 1:30:04 P.M. UTC-02, lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: I became attracted to Counterfactual History from reading Niall Ferguson, but that isn't what I am engaging in when looking at battles. Students at a war college wouldn't see these notes as "counterfactuals." One looks at the two forces, at their leaders, numbers, arms, and logistics as well as movements during the battle. It isn't counterfactual to suggest for example that if the left wing of Hoods forces held out a little longer, and they could have if Hood had the men he requested, his army wouldn't have collapsed and General Thomas wouldn't have won that battle. Any military instructor worth his salt would impress upon his students the consequences of poor logistics and tactical execution during a battle. I engaged in counterfactuals briefly when I considered what the territory that is presently the U.S. would have looked like if the South had won the Civil War. As far as I can recall nothing else I wrote would qualify as counterfactual history in the Niall Ferguson sense of the term. Which isn't to say that I didn't enjoy your research on the subject. I did. Thank you. Yes, it would be interesting to check, in our prose, etc., as to when we may be said to have indulged in a counterfactualism. (Indeed, counterfactualism is more of a linguist's jargon. G. N. Leech, in his second edition to his Semantics, published by Penguin) distinguishes between 'factive', 'counterfactive' and 'nonfactive': "He is mistaken as to..." is counterfactive; "he knows" is factive; and "he thinks" is non-factive). When Grice (he died in 1988) published, in 1989 (the book, "Studies in the Way of Words" is posthumous) the fourth William James lectures on conditionals, he entitled it, "Indicative Conditionals". Grice is suggesting, by this phrase, that there are "subjunctive" conditionals -- Note that 'if' ("p --> q") itself does not change: it's the tense, the aspect, and the mode, of the verb that does. So, qua philosopher, it may to see if we can formalise something very simple like: x has property F; x has property G -- and play counterfactually. Part of the problem, for Griceians, is due to early observations by J. L. Mackie (a student of Grice at Oxford) and D. K. Lewis. "If the queen of England had been a male..." Note that "what if?" is formulated as a question, which may complicate things further. For empiricist philosophers, there's no fact-of-the-matter regarding the Queen of England: being the Queen of England reduces, in logical terms, to a mere property -- call it "F". Now, to be female is part of the _essence_ of the Queen of England (Kripke's views on necessity further complicate the issues here). So to argue, counterfactually, that had the queen of England been male, this or that would have happened, amounts, to the philosopher, to having 'changed the subject' somewhat abruptly. For the queen of England would not have been the queen of England had she been male. And so on. How this relates to the Civil War is yet another issue. I was referring to a clause -- not so much about the territory of the US -- but such as (Helm): "Had Hood been able to replace his troops as Thomas or Schofield did, he would certainly have fared better." As L. Helm notes, above, "Any military instructor worth his salt would impress upon his students the consequences of poor logistics and tactical execution during a battle." Note, however, if you wish, the complexity, for purposes of logical formalisation of the utterance above about Hood. It naturally concerns the past tense, since indeed a subjunctive conditional requires a past scenario. How can there be counterfactuals about the future? "Had Hood been able to replace his troops as Thomas or Schofield did, he would certainly have fared better." Alas, Griceians have focused on the implicatures (and entailments) of the above. A VERY Clear "entailment" (or is it implicature?) of the above is that the utterer (Helm) KNOWS that Hood was not able to replace his troops. What may add a complexity as to the logical form of an 'ability' statement: "Hood was not able to replace his troops". As per IMPOSSIBLE? Recall Alice, in Wonderland, "I think of at least five impossible things every day" (or some such). It is not a conceptual impossibility. It was POSSIBLE, factually, for Hood to replace his troops. To complicate things even further, as we relate this to predictability or lack thereof in history, this may trade on Aristotle on the contingent and the necessary -- which sometimes invites the wrong implicature. For as Noel Burton-Roberts ("Implicature and Modality", "Linguistics & Philosophy") and others have noted, even what is necessary IS contingent; in other words, if x is necessary, x is possible (although to say that x is possible usually triggers a sometimes unwanted implicature to the effect that x is not necessary -- Modal Square of Opposition). "Had Hood been able to replace his troops as Thomas or Schofield did, he would certainly have fared better." L. Helm is right that the sort of scenario depicted in that tactical evaluation seems pretty basic. The 'certainly' may invite an implication of necessity, that is best understood as 'high probability'; for surely a replacement of troops -- as Thomas or Schifield had it -- is not a sufficient, let alone necessary, condition for the planned outcome -- victory in battle. So, again, even if L. Helm is right that his lines of reasoning have hardly been ultra-counterfactual, one may need to elaborate on strong and weak counterfactuality, and their thresholds. Or something like that. Cheers, Speranza Refs: wiki, counterfactual history. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html