[lit-ideas] Re: THREE FOR THEE
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:27:32 EST
JMG:
>> M. Geary (tr. M. Geary)
DR:
>How was it, trying to translate yourself? Did you cause yourself much
difficulty? Did you stumble over your own ambiguity?
-----
No. It was a Griceian experiment. The thing IS tricky, but not impossible.
There is this prejudice that 'to translate' means 'one's language'. "I
found her gestures untranslatable". Versus, "I found her _words_
'untranslatable'". The Italian, 'translate', in fact, Latinate, was not
Classical Latin.
The Latins (or Romans, as I prefer) lacked a word for _translate'.
"Translate" features the lat- root, which is sometimes connected with
'relation'.
To re-late, to trans-late. It is connected, artificially, with the root
-fer. Thus, re-fer, and re-late, seem cognate. Similarly, 'trans-fer' and
'trans-late'. In this connection, 'trans-fer' connects with 'meta-phor'.
There is also the problem that Fodor calls "LOT", Language of Thought. So
some people argue that your thoughts are first 'translated' to 'words' and
vice versa.
---- There may be other issues involved.
"How was it, trying to translate yourself?"
I don't think he said he _tried_. He just did it.
"Did you cause yourself much difficulty? Did you stumble over your own
ambiguity?". The philosophical problem here is the possibility of
self-deception, vis a vis Wittgenstein's and Grice's appeal to incorrigibility
and
privileged access.
It may be claimed that one cannot be, for oneself, ambiguous. Grice has
this conversational rule,
"Avoid ambiguity".
But he too claims, in WoW (Way of Words) that one cannot _conversationally_
implicate to oneself. "Implicature," he claims, and rightly, is the "realm
of conversation".
I once tried to implicate myself.
Freud on the other hand, and his wicked daughter, Anna, claimed (to their
profit) that people CAN self-deceive and miss their own implicata -- (plural
of 'implicatum', there, which Grice contrasts with 'implicatURA', the act
of putting forward an implicatum).
A slip of the tongue -- lapsus linguae -- for example -- a "Freudian" lip,
is impossible in poetry -- and philosophy -- hence Geary. Etc.
Speranza
The Swimming-Pool Library, etc.
----
In a message dated 11/14/2010 7:19:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ritchierd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
On Nov 14, 2010, at 4:04 PM, Mike Geary wrote:
CHANGE OF SEASONS
In June, my ear against an oak,
You asked what I was doing.
"Listening to the sap rise," I said.
You laughed. I laughed
We both laughed through that
whole leaf dancing summer.
In September, I touched you
and you looked away.
I heard the leaves die.
--------- Mike Geary (trans.Mike Geary)
I'd write "hooray," but you might think I was cheering the wrong cause. I
like the piece.
How was it, trying to translate yourself? Did you cause yourself much
difficulty? Did you stumble over your own ambiguity?
David etc.
Not Canada
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