[lit-ideas] In Saecula Saeculorum
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:25:30 EDT
Thanks to Krueger and McCreery for their comments:
>>an emphasis of the infinite duration of
>>something .... not only forever, but beyond that, forever plus a day more
>>"120 percent."
Interesting.
I like this idea in the OED however that 'for ever and a day' is a
corruption of 'for ever and aye'.
Note that 'forever and ever' is used at various parts of the C. of E.
service.
I was contrasting this -- just to please Geary, a Catholic -- with the
Vulgate, and we have a few problems there:
We have the phrase,
"Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum.
Amen."
Literally:
"As (it) was in the principle, and now, and always, and in centuries of
centuries. Amen."
The relevant Latin expression, "in saecula saeculorum" is preserved in the
Romance languages, such as French:
"aux siècles des siècles"
and Italian: "nei secoli dei secoli"
Now, while "the ages of ages" is an expression which _is_ used in modern
English translations of the Bible, it would not be KJV -- and I happen to be
a
member of the "Common Prayer Society" for the preservation of the KJV in all
forms (Alan Bennett taught me about this).
So I'd rather be _martirized_ than be heard using 'ages of ages' and would
stick to the KJV,
"for ever and ever" (as in "Phillipians") Translating:
"Sit Trinitati gloria, honor, potestas inclita,
Uni Deo per omnia, in saeculorum saecula."
(note the free Latin order, 'saeculourm saecula' rather than 'saecula
saeculorum')
Now, as every Catholic knows, the phrase that Graham Greene (a Catholic)
used as the title of his novel, "The power and the glory" is _not_ part of the
traditional Catholic mass, while it _is_ kept in the C. of E. rite. The Latin
being -- in the Lord's Prayer:
What is interesting there is that the Latin is less emphatic and would
literally read "in centuries" (rather than "centuries of centuries"):
"Quia tuum est regnum, et potestas, et gloria
in saecula."
"For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory,
for ever and ever"
Now, in connection with the "120%" of the Japanese that should not really
count as a paradox (e.g. a student may get a 120% in a test, provided you
curve
the thing -- where "120% translates as an "A+" (100%) for that particular
test and an extra 20% for a future test. So by working 120% they may be
'collecting' or saving points for a further task. This would be not normal, or
even
erogatory, but what philosophers call "_supererogatory_" (beyond the call of
duty).
I tend to interpret "in saeculorum saecula" (or 'in saecula saeculorum') as,
for some reason, implying multiplication (as per " A X B").
Provided a 'saeculum' (Fr. siecle) is 1000 years, the multiplication would
yield at least:
(at least) 2,000 years (for it's plural, 'saecula')
X 2, 000 years
___________________________
4, 000, 000 square years.
I have two problems with that:
-- What _is_ a 'square year'?
-- It looks pretty _finite_ to me, however hyperbolic in intention.
And _why_ would a Latin genitive case construction be interpreted as
multiplication anyway. I would think that "four times five" would be, in Latin,
'quattro (tempora?) quinque' -- i.e. a non-genitive construction. Or would it
be
"quattro (tempora?) quinqUIS"? The problem here is that numerals were not
declined in Latin.
This all reminds me of that Buenos Aires bestseller -- true! You see it in
every bookshop in Buenos Aires), J. L. Borges, "A History of Eternity"
I've used in the subject-matter the expression with 'saeculorum' at the end,
to credit the OED, who has 'culorum' (sic) as being used by LANGLAND (only)
to mean "corollary" or 'conclusion'. Herbert Coleridge thinks it's a
corruption of 'saeculorum' -- the conclusion of the Lord's prayer -- while a
German
philologist quoted there thinks it's a mere corruption of 'corollarium".
Cheers,
JL
Buenos Aires, Argentina
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