Irene, Jean-Francois Revel had your point of view in mind when he wrote How Democracies perish, 1983 (English edition 1985). He described democracy as "the first system in history which, confronted by a power that wants to destroy it, accuses itself. . . . "The distinctive mark of our century is the humility with which democratic civilization agrees to disappear and works to legitimize the victory of its mortal enemy. That communism shall have been more clever and effective in its offensive would only be one additional example of one power being a better strategist than the other. . . . It is less natural and newer that the targeted civilization should not only judge that its defeat is justified, but provide its partisans as well as its adversaries with ample reason to regard all forms of self-defense as immoral, or at best superfluous and useless, if not downright dangerous." These words were quoted in one of the obituaries I read. Are they not still applicable in our struggle against Militant Islam? Revel had the Leftists in view when he wrote those words. Since I am not a Leftist I cannot get caught up in the angst you and Mike Geary display. I don't agree with it. I don't blame the U.S. I don't consider the Militant Islamists as being morally equal to the U.S. The idea that we should allow a Rogue nation to have nuclear weapons because we have them strikes me as suicidal madness. Before you been frothing and rush to produce a list of things the U.S. has done wrong, all nations have made mistakes, but the U.S. has made fewer than the others and the American motives are more benign than any of the others. As to your question about being King of the world, I don't believe in Monarchies; so I can't imagine an answer to it. Take it that I think Liberal Democracy is the best form of government that has been developed in the world and the U.S. the best exemplar. There are a lot of things in our society I am unhappy with - too many Leftists in it for example -- but not so much that I would want to move to any other. Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 5:44 AM To: lit-ideas Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ahmadi-Nejad's Letter to Bush What you're doing by threatening military action and by our having taken military action, is taking all the people in the center of the bell curve and giving them a reason to give the fringes another look. You say they've declared war on us. What do you call what we did and want to do to them? The oil spot approach is more effective than war, which is ineffective, as Iraq has shown. Just as most Americans are not political, neither are most Muslims. Instead of giving Joe Muslim Average a reason to give the Islamic fringes another look because they're terrified of the Americans, who are terrified of the Muslims, why not give them a reason to not hate us and not be terrified? There are always going to be fringe groups. A fringe group in the U.S. bombed Oklahoma City. But most Americans don't support them. Most Muslims don't support the fringes of Islamism either, all they want is to survive and have a bigger house in the suburbs, just like everybody else. Give them a reason to come to your side of the fence. Up until the Iraq invasion, Americans were the cultural leaders of the world. Iraq changed that. By advocating barbarism and acting like barbarians, we're driving ourselves deeper into the Middle Ages, where the US. already is anyway in this age of anti-Darwin and pro-apocalypse. I've asked you this before and I'll ask again, if you were King of the World, what would your world look like, and what would be your game plan for making it look that way? Catch you later. (And please answer my question about being King of the World. Not something you read in a book, but your ideas.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 5/12/2006 2:22:06 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Ahmadi-Nejad's Letter to Bush I never called them stone-age but their social structure and laws were developed in medieval times and they want to return to them. The absolutes prescribed by Mohammad remain valid. Sharia law came from Allah through Mohammad and applies today the way it did in the 7th century. Also, the Arabs didnt invent all the things you gave them credit for. The Islamists have made such claims, but they arent true and are easily disproved. Many of the scholars Ive read have taken the trouble to disprove them. There was a period when Arabic learning was more advanced than anyone elses, but this was a result of their translating Greek texts. Albert Hourani also refers to Indian and Persian texts but Arabs didnt go beyond what these earlier civilizations had developed except in very minor ways. Hourani refers to some advances in astronomy and surgery. Western enlightenment began with the discovery of the Greek texts handed on by the Arabic scholars, but what these scholars had done and were doing wasnt in keeping with the Sharia and so was discontinued. These scholars were in violation of the Sharia and not exemplars of it. They were shut down. The Arabs returned to the medieval teachings of the 7th century while the West advanced. As the West became increasingly enlightened, the Arabs entered their own dark ages not because they were conquered (although they were by the Turks) but because they felt Sharia Law demanded it. The Arabs did not invent the West. Western Society began with Greece, continued through the Roman period and on into a medieval decline where some knowledge was preserved. There were various high points in various cities and then there was the European Enlightenment. So not only did the Arabs not invent the West but the Arab scholars who were congenial to Western thinking were repudiated by the Arabs. The Fundamentalist brand of Islam that we are contending with isnt pure 7th century Islam but as close as the Fundamentalists can make it sort of -- it is their conception of it. It began with Wahhab in the 18th century was advanced by the Salafists, carried on by the Egyptian Muslim Brothers, picked up by Maududi, Sayyid Qutb & the Ayatollah Khomeini. And they believe the medieval crusades are still in effect. They have declared war upon us. I see no good reason for not taking them at their word. Lawrence