[Ilugc] Re: Are you serious? - needs summarizing!!
- From: sudharsan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sudharsan S.N.)
- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:33:20 +0100 (BST)
Hallo,
Read this!! Sriram, Read this and try to help me
out with what I`ve written in the last section of this
mail, but kindly don`t miss out what lies in between.
-S.N.Sudharsan.
============================================================================================================
Apart from the Mozilla guys, I can't say
that there is a single OSS project out there that
dedicates itself to
usability.
What do you mean? Take a good look at all the other
great tools!!
What r u trying to say, the "My computer" and "Network
neighborhood" make u feel so good and nostalgic abt
MS-Windows GUI and it`s so-called monopolised
usability!!
Both Gnome and KDE
shamelessly ripping them off...In fact , nowadays,
both KDE and Gnome
look like a skinned version of Windows. Where is the
innovation?
I`m trying to tell u that GUI is a concept in which
you have a visual interface comprising of
icons/buttons/windows,etc..........and ur trying to
tell me all of them belong to windows. I`ve studied a
subject called Computer graphics and multimedia - you
have all these visual interfaces well illustrated
there and there is no mention of Windows/Linux.
My friend, the concept of GUI and all the stuff that
go into it does not belong to Windows.
Trying to say GUI belong to windows is like saying the
gifts of nature like Basmati/neem belongs to america,
it does not belong to anybody!! It belongs to nature!!
The concept of having a visual representation is GUI
and it cannot belong to people of Microsoft just bocs
they did a wonderful GUI. They might have contributed
but not own it.
You cannot copyright/patent basmati-neem,etc,. They r
nature`s products and trying to say they r yours is
very much of an illegitimate claim. Basmati/Neem
belong to nature and not to india/america/germany.
Even if history wud have been different
someone-somewhere(non-MS) wud have started something
called a GUI only with a menu/pop-up
window/icons/buttons; that is what the subject says
irresptive of the OS used.
Even Solaris has a GUI with menus/buttons/windows, r u
trying to say they copied it from the famous Ms
again?? Forget the wallpapers.......and all those
"jilpans" screensavers.
Soon,
MS will come out with Longhorn(which has a
mind-blowing interface...I've
been lucky enough to see sneak previews which are not
available on the
net). Where is the corresponding OSS plan?
You argument favoring MS seems to come more out of
fascination than facts!! You might have to dump ur
processor/monitor/graphics card in the not-so-distant
future, I sure presume u will do that to see the
"Long-Horn". No counter-plan for OSS, just design a
much more friendlier GUI, constant improvisation -as
we call it!!
Why not? I was comparing the ease-of-use of both Oss
and I found the
GUIs as the easiest barometer.
My argument trying to explain ease-of-use was well
illustrated in first reply thread. Ease-of-use depends
on where u start, Windows or Linux!! A person who
starts with "My computer" might find "Home" and the
entire inverted-tree structure annoying and
vice-versa!! When u say ease-of-use, whose
ease-of-use? I dont find any big difference in both
except for some new icons and features in Linux which
r obviously different and difficult, but not because
they r so implicity, but bcos I`m new to them!!
Similarly for u, who must be obviously used to c: and
d: might find '/' and '/root' annoying.
The difference is perception!! Both r excellent GUIs.
As I had mentioned trying to say GUIs in OSS are bad
is very much spurious in itself!!
Tell me...has IBM released the source to DB2? Or Sun
its Java
implementation? Sun and IBM want to get involved with
Linux purely
because that's the only hope they have of competing
with MS. You would
be deceiving yourself if you though they really
believed in the
principles of OSS.
They r not talking abt releasing all their codes of
products which they have released so far, but they r
talking abt becoming open. They r not going to give
away all their past codes( i presume so), but if they
release a product under the banner of OSS(which they r
trying to do) they wud obviously have to release it!!
My argument is not supporting Java/IBM,etc,........My
argument is abt supporting the philosophy of OSS and
not to keep a check on whose releasing it and whose
not. I`m preaching for the doctrines of OSS and not
for Sun/IBM.,etc,.
They analyze the errors. They figure out what is
causing the errors.
They look at ways of fixing it
They have been doing it for decades together!! What is
that going to result in?
The most-perfect-creation-of-mankind-the-magnum-opus
called Longhorn?? We`ll see that!!
I once wrote an app to allocate
over 2gb of memory(in small increments)
Send the code to the group!! Or is it 'taboo'?
The OSS world - yes. The programming world - no.
What r U talking abt? The real world/matrix stuff. A
code is a code be it in the "OSS world" or the
"programmers world", a code is a set of lines that
does a specific function. All r programmers, when
they program, it is essentially lines of code for the
computer to understand. It is only when it comes out
and is shaded with policies such as MS/OSS it becomes
the way u call it!! Essentially speaking, both r lines
of code. What do u see, two different factions??
Programmers do the same work, be it in Red Hat Inc,.
or Microsoft Inc,.,- code!!
The problem is how it comes out, or whether it ever
comes out or not!!
Tell me, why don't you
ask Intel or AMD to give up their processor making
technology? Why apply
a different barometer to MS?
When ur talking abt Intel processors ur talking abt
hardware components and not something u can change the
way u want it to work(of course u can!!). There is a
specific functionality to a device like a processor.
You write assembly language to modify the
functionality not change the design of the processor.
We r not talking abt open source hardware but about
OSS.
I want to ask the
people on this group...how many of you make a living
by *developing* OSS
software?
What r u trying to say? only people working in MS r
paid. As u urself had pointed out, there r people who
need OSS as a hobby and who r essentially very good
programmers who want to do things or make things
happen with their system. But what r u trying to tell
me, there arent anybody involved in 'paid' OSS work.
You make
it open-source...and then bang! Some one else comes
along....takes your
code...makes a few modifications and starts making
money. How do you
prevent that?
Let`s analyse the thread that`s running abt this
carefully. Let this "Are you serious" thread go
on.........but keep a watch on that. It is only when a
flower blooms u actually see the beauty behind it!!
(That`s my saying - not the proprietary 'my' - I meant
that I framed it!!)
What point? That code has now been in the open for
almost a month and
I'm sure thousands of people have looked at it. And
all they've found is
one vulnerability in IE which had been fixed 3 years
ago. In fact, there
was an article on www.kuro5hin.org reluctantly
admitting that the code
was of very high quality.
You say programmers shud have IP rights and u say Ms
supports it and u once again say MS is "in" for OSS!!
What r u trying to say MS is an open source
organisation or is it the MS, most people in the OSS
world know? We r not talking abt code quality anyway!!
We r talking abt code availability!!
My favorite game is still "Age of Empires-Rise of
Rome" and is possibly the best ever; so what??
That MS code was anyway 'leaked' and not bundled with
ur CD!! Anyway I have a question to ask, is ur Windows
XP bought, or just simply 'loaded and installed'? Have
u bought ur Windows XP CD from a "Windows certified
vendor" or just one of ur friend`c CD like almost all
others(including me) and most of them who open this
mail in their "Windows".If u say u bought it for 6000
odd rupees...:)) haha. I`ll be waiting for a honest
answer from you!!
But I perfectly understand Microsoft not
wanting to expose their work(which has cost them a
LOT of time and
money)
What do u mean 'expose'? ur not exposing the Odessa
file!! ur supposedly 'exposing' the code to ur own
community and most importantly to the person who has
paid u money to use ur software!!Forget the
community.......MS doesnt even respect the customer!!
Let me send an "error report" saying I have bought
Windows XP, pls give me the source code because I`m a
developer who will need it!! Are they going to
incorporate this suggestion and make the
most-perfect-creation-of-mankind-the-magnum-opus
Longhorn an open source model!!
As to why code is necessary........there r so many
posts.....pls read them............!!
this is the core disagreement...whether the source is
necessary for the average user/programmer or even if
it is necessary for
the majority of the users.
This is the core point indeed!! the average user/avg
programmer might not need it, but what abt those who
need it?? Is Ms going to conduct a survey amongst prog
on whether they need code or not? I`ve given a
comparison between a layman/normal user/Engineer, pls
read that again!!
What abt an Engineer/developer? What abt you? I think
u might not need them............I can c that ur
extremely happy with all that u`ve got from MS, anyway
that`s good news!! Atleast u can R-I-P!!
Please see the other thread on this group regarding
making money using
the GPL.
As I said I`m following it very closely!!
The question here is on philosophy...not on skill or
talent.
That is what I`m also talking abt...........
Anyway, I think a debate between Windows vs Linux is
pointless
What do you mean? Pointless. Why do you make it a
point to respond to all the threads?? Bcos u want to
prove a point!! So do we!!
If you remember,
this thread started because somebody posted some
wrong information about
MS presence in Chennai colleges..
If it`s wrong information that Ms is spreading it`s
word on seeing somebody else spread their 'gospel'
then the point can be accepted. As again, it wud have
been seen the other way around!!
What if OSS followed MS there in MIT?? You wud have
said OSS guys r trying to counter MS with their
"shameless rippings"(as u wud call them). I`m sure u
wud have.......
As for the argument regarding the philosophy, I
believe the core
question is one of IP (Intellectual Property )
rights. MS believes that
you use what you've developed however you want...make
money if you want
to...keep it to yourself if you want to. That's the
core difference
here.
Ms does not believe in that choice "if u want to", it
says make money and keep it to urself and don`t treat
the customer as a customer but treat him as a person
who has walked into a dead-end. I know that MS firmly
believes in this!!
The 'best' part abt MS is it doesnt give u too many
choices!! There r people happy with their choices and
as it goes - "Ignorance is bliss!!" and for the others
they aren`t and Ms obviously does not allow u to even
look at other choices!! The only choices I see are
"Abort/retry/ignore", "Illegal Operation"(the only
allowed choice being 'close'), "Send/Don`t send error
report" and finally "Are you sure you want to
restart?"
I dont mean these choices!! Nor does OSS!!
OSS says, if u believe in the "Ignorance is bliss" go
on just run my programs!! Or else u also can look
beyond what u have, it gives u a choice!! Linux/OSS
does not believe in an outright charity show either!!
Mind you Linux-EL is 99,000/-
Actually,my mom wonders what in hell I spend so much
time in front of my
computer for.:-)
That`s bcos ur busy restarting MS!! :-)
Anyway, I guess I'll
let the whole world use my wonderful Pepsi/Coke
analogies under the
Creative Commons License...;-)
Alas ur coming in terms with OSS!! Welcome to the
club, my dear friend!!
Summary: Okay, I`ll put this question to you!! What
are you trying to say thro` repeated threads?? You
said u use Linux and u find a lot of 'cool' stuff and
u flay the UIs and their functionality!! You said MS
is against OSS policies but u say that they release
their codes too(to elite thieves, who leak
them)!!Contradictions a plenty!!
What suggestion wud u like to put forward to the ilugc
which is in a way a representation of the OSS
community itself?? I`m not asking this bcos I did not
understand what u had said, but since this thread has
gone tooooooo big, I feel at times u r missing the
point(As u had confessed-confusing b/w the product
Linux and OSS) and sometimes we respond to points that
have been posted simply bcos we find it unacceptable
as members of an OSS supporting mailing list. If u
feel u want to support Ms, it`s very much of ur
choice, but we r people(most of us) very much
convinced by ideologies of OSS!!
I subscribed to this not just to get some knowhows and
howtos and keep answering and questioning but bcos I
find this concept fascinating in itself!! So in the
process get to know more abt the concept of FSF and
interact with fellow likers/lovers/admirers.
I repeat, try to summarize ur views on the "Are you
serious?" thread, bcos a lot of times we r busy
flaying each other`s products and missing the
difference in each other`s philosophies. I`m asking
this only bcos this thread has assumed monstrous
proportions and has in many ways reached saturation!!
Your question abt the core difference is answered
above - OSS gives u choices, Ms believes in sealing
those choices!! The question is abt 'Choice'!! (I`m
not bald headed and I`m not searching for "The One")
:-) :-)
S.N.Sudharsan,
B.E.(Cse), RHCE(RH-9),
Velammal engineering college,
Chennai.
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