[geocentrism] Re: Point a) - the ether

  • From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:52:03 +1000

R. Sungenis: Again, if you were a disciple of Shankland

Such remarks have no place in a serious discussion - please cut it out.

Yes they do Regner. Are you denying there can be complicity  in support among 
scientists. How many of them combined to deny Flight?  How many today are 
combining to support Global warming, an obvious political interference using 
monetary pressures.   I don't know the morality of Shankland, but surely it may 
be questioned just as much as was Galelleo. Lets look at the evidence before 
just wiping or cutting it out. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Regner Trampedach 
  To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:48 PM
  Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Point a) - the ether

  Robert Sungenis,
  Let's attack this problem one issue at a time. I promise to return to the 
other issues
  later. And let's start with R. Cahill's theory.
  Have you ever read any of Cahill's papers? If you have, you would know that 
  theory is based on the postulate that there is a Lorentz contraction - not 
based on
  the relative speed between object and observer as in special relativity - but 
  on the absolute speed of an object with respect to the aether. With all the 
  of the Lorentz contraction in this forum, I'm rather surprised that you would 
  such an explanation.
    The big problem with this postulate is, of course, that it has never been 
  and that it is pretty hard to come up with a theoretical explanation for it. 
Let me
  contrast the two cases:

  * a physical squeezing of any moving object.
  * If we were on the bridge of the USS Enterprise, traveling at 99% of c 
(speed of
    light in vacuum) we would get physically very flat (14% of our normal 
    - when we turned around to face away from the flight-direction, we would 
get flat
    sideways - it would take of energy to do this, and deposit a lot of energy 
in our
    bodies - and I believe it would scramble us quite a bit. Looking at each 
    at a 90° to the flight-direction, we would appear flat to each other.
  * Laws of physics would be quite different there!
  * Since it involves physical squeezing of objects, how can this effect depend 
    the velocity with respect to the aether only - and not depend at all on the
    material of the object? It would take quite different amounts of energy to
    squeeze air and steel. And what is supposed to happen to the constituent 
  * How come we have never observed such a squeezing of moving matter. Again, 
    energies involved would be rather high. And I shudder to think how a 
    fighter-jet would handle, when you get different results from the 
    depending on which direction you are flying!
  * The theory is constructed to explain away the null results of modern M-M 
    experiments that find no movement with respect to an aether to
    one part in 400,000 billion.

  Special Relativity:
  * The contraction only appears when there is a relative velocity between 
    and observer. It is a kind of "perspective effect".
  * If we were on the bridge of the USS Enterprise, traveling at 99% of c 
(speed of
    light in vacuum) we would not get flat. We would only seem flat to 
observers back
    on Earth (traveling at 99% of c, with respect to us).
  * Everything would behave perfectly normal and we would be able to dribble a 
ball in
    exactly the same way as back on Earth, and the replicators would work as 
  * The contraction is only a perspective effect, so it can easily (and does) 
    in the same contraction for any material - no problems with atomic physics 
  * The theory is a results of two simple postulates (confirmed by 
    a) The laws of physics are the same in all inertial systems.
    b) The speed of light in vacuum has the same value in all inertial systems.

  If you don't include Cahill's postulate then you won't have a cancellation of 
aether effects
  in vacuum Michelson-Morley interferometers - no throwing away of babies with 
  And as Philip also points out in his post of 28/04/2008, the logic is a bit 
  And two aethers - how does the light figure out which aether to move in???

  I have interspersed a few other comments below and inserted divisions between 
each persons
  contributions - our mailing programs obviously handles replies differently.

        - R. Trampedach

  Sungenis@xxxxxxx wrote: 
    R. Trampedach: Robert, Sorry for the long delay - and rest assured that it 
was not due to an unwillingness to reply. My comments and questions in red.

    The Müller et al. (2003) experiment: You spend many words describing and 
then ridiculing the experiment for being performed in a lab, in vacuum and in 
solid crystals. You do, however, not tell us why you find that problematic. I 
can think of a couple of reasons, but please enlighten me about your reasons.

    R. Sungenis: The portion I quoted was from Dr. Robert Bennett’s chapter. I 
forwarded him your question and here is his response:
    The reasons for rejection of these exp. conditions are mentioned several 
times in my chapter. It was Dayton Miller and Reginald Cahill that found the 
modern repetitions and analogs of the MMX problematic. I just agreed with their 
logic – and evidence. Miller found that the periodic sidereal signal he 
detected was markedly reduced with increased shielding, such as building walls 
and distance underground. He also found the signal strength increased with 
altitude, as on Mt. Wilson (see GWW). Most modern recreations of MMX are done 
in the basement of huge concrete edifices – this is a problem, sometimes THE 

    Miller found an empirical dependence on the gas used as interferometer 
medium, but it was Cahill who satisfactorily explained the dependence of aether 
intensity on n, the index of refraction (see GWW).

    All the modern experiments that claim c isotropy using a vacuum have thrown 
the baby out with the bathwater.  Detecting variation in c requires that there 
be matter in motion relative to the earth – the Absolute Reference Frame.   
Aether moving at speed v relative to earth (the ARF) can only be detected by 
light being absorbed and emitted by atoms free to move with the aether.  
Without matter present, the moving aether can’t be observed. Consider: the 
speed of an airstream (wind) can’t be measured unless something visible is 
moving with the wind. 


    The ideal aether detection occurs with a large n, the opposite of modern 
exps.  Atoms in solids like Lucite and quartz aren’t free to move with aether, 
but are bound to their average lattice positions. Transparent solids are thus 
eliminated as effective aether media. 

    Cahill  is the definitive source -  see GWW or 






    (for quantum foam, read aether)

    Look forward to the parallax diagram resolution…..

    Robert Bennett 


    R. Trampedach: The Miller experiments. Some major problems with your 
interpretation of Miller's results:

    1) The measured fringe-shifts corresponds to his experiment moving in the 
North-South direction with respect to the aether! ...mostly - at other times 
(when there is snow on the ground at the North and West walls of the lab-hut 
and those two walls were water-soaked) the fringe-shifts has a maximum in the 
    R. Sungenis: So then, it seems you are admitting that there is a real ether 
drift. As for the directional anomaly, we already explained why Miller 
understood his ether drift as originating from the southern celestial pole. It 
was due to his belief that the earth was revolving around the sun which then 
led him to use a triangulation method, which then led him to conclude the solar 
system was moving toward Draco at 208/km/sec. We write:

    Miller configured the four interferometer readings in the form of a 
parallelogram (February, April, August, September), which assumes the Earth is 
in orbit around the sun. The diagonal of each of the four parallelogram points 
represents the apex of that period, while the long side represents the motion, 
which is coincident with the center of orbit; the short side of the 
parallelogram represents Earth velocity of 30 km/sec. Hence, knowing the 
direction of the three sides of the triangle, and the magnitude of one side, 
allows one to calculate the magnitude of the other sides, which for Miller was 
208 km/sec toward Dorado. (See also Laurence Hetch in 21st Century – Science 
and Technology, Spring 1988, pp. 47-48.)

    But we don’t accept Miller’s triangulation, because it simply begs the 
question of whether the earth is revolving around the sun. We only accept his 
finding of an ether drift, for it confirms every other interferometer 
experiment that measured the same or similar drift.
    R. Trampedach: 2) When the observing conditions are stable (recognized by 
stable fringes and the observations showing systematic effects) the phase 
(direction) of the maximum in the fringe-shift, is constant over 5-6 (sidereal) 
hours of observations.
    R. Sungenis: Then, again, we have an example of an ether drift.
    R. Trampedach: 3) The stability of the observations, and the phase of the 
maximum in the fringe-shift, is highly correlated with temperature differences 
between the walls of the lab-hut.
    R. Sungenis: Maybe according to Shankland, but since Shankland retrieved 
only the unpublished results from Miller’s experiments that included 
temperature variation, Shankland’s conclusion was biased, and knowingly so. In 
all his published results, Miller is insistent that all temperature 
interference was eliminated, the very results that Shankland did not include in 
his report to Einstein.
    R. Trampedach: 4) A couple of his dawn observations are annotated with "sun 
shines on interferometer" (they are obviously not included in his published 
final results). These show the same phase as the observations taken just before 
dawn, but have about twice the amplitude. This direct sunlight was only what 
leaked in through cracks in the walls or around the door.

    R. Sungenis: Again, Miller recognized this factor and eliminated it 
afterward. That is why he didn’t publish this result. He only published the 
results that eliminated the temperature factor so that the ether drift measured 
would be an authentic one.

    R. Trampedach: My summary of Miller's experiments:  2) means that the 
effect cannot be due to the Earth rotating with respect to an aether - or the 
aether (and the Universe?) spinning daily around a stationary Earth.


    R. Sungenis: Again, we don’t accept Miller’s triangulation method that led 
to directional finding, since he is assuming in his triangulation that the 
earth is revolving around the sun.
    R. Trampedach: 1) means that the effect cannot be due to a constant 
velocity w.r.t. an aether.


    R. Sungenis: Not necessarily. It may also mean that the equipment is not 
perfect, and the lab environment is not perfect. All experiments worth their 
salt take these contingencies into account, and that is why they make their 
conclusions based on averages. But regardless whether the fringes were big or 
small or somewhere in between, the fact remains that an ether drift was 

  Sorry, but your proclamation of 'facts' is a bit premature.

    as was the case in all the other interferometer experiments, including 
Sagnac’s in 1913 that measured ether drift with respect to rotation instead of 
revolution, an experiment that Einstein failed to mention in any of his 
    R. Trampedach: 1) means that the effect cannot be due to an orbit around 
the Sun w.r.t. an aether.
    R. Sungenis: We agree, since we don’t believe the earth orbits the sun, and 
therefore we don’t accept Miller’s triangulation based on that unproven 

  I sure hope you don't consider that statement 'scientific reasoning'.

    R. Trampedach: 1, 3 and 4)  makes it very likely that the observed effect 
is due to temperature gradients in the lab-hut.

    R. Sungenis: Again, if you were a disciple of Shankland

  Such remarks have no place in a serious discussion - please cut it out.

    you might believe so. That’s why we went through the sordid history between 
Miller and Shankland and Einstein to show why Shankland and Einstein had a 
vested interest in making conclusions regarding Miller’s previous temperature 
gradient problems rather than his corrected figures when the temperature 
gradient factor was removed.
    R. Trampedach: Miller's experiment was quite stable against temperature 
fluctuations, but not against stable (slowly changing) temperature gradients 
across the whole experiment. Miller was strongly urged by both Einstein and 
Lorentz to continue and improve his experiments.
    R. Sungenis: But in each case, whether in the midst of large temperature 
fluctuations or slowly changing temperature gradients, or no temperature 
factor, Miller measured an ether drift. No experiment to date has ever 
disproven that fact. If you don’t find this significant, they you’ll need to 
show a battery of experiments that don’t show ANY ether drift. I don’t know of 

    For the record, I don’t know any place where Einstein encourages Miller to 
continue, but I know why Lorentz might have, since Lorentz believed in ether. 
Einstein’s special relativity could not survive with an ether, at least until 
he needed to invent general relativity and took back the ether that he 
previously rejected and excused the reversal by saying the ether now in use 
wasn’t a “ponderable” ether.
    R. Trampedach: Some more comments interspersed below. By the way, I would 
much appreciate if you didn't feel compelled to include whole chapters of your 
1000 page book in these posts. Summaries would be quite adequate.
    R. Sungenis: I think I have satisfied that concern in this post. However, 
even if you find that extra material somewhat laborious, I include it for the 
benefit of the others on the list who want to see the context of the issue.

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