Bernie, Just goes to show you ...look at his comments: "I am not anxious to become a geocentrist if only because it involves a lot of "explanations" that don't ring true.The speed of every planet, star, and galaxy lying further away than Saturn has to be faster than the speed of light in order for the cosmos to be revolving around the earth daily, many many times faster-than-light " Ignorance of what our "explanations" are in the first place..............................YES! "Ignorance" of Relitivities concurrence with said "explanations"...................................................................................................YES! A similar question arises if you are a young-earth creationist because any object in space lying more than 6,000 or so light-years away is not giving off light created by that object but just light created "in transit." Such light is FAKE HISTORY, and not showing us the objects as they once were, nor showing us what really happened in the past out there in space. It's all FAKE HISTORY beyond 6,000 light-years away. "Ignorance" of big bang cosmology where space-time itself expands based on Hubbellʼs constant to produce what we see today which tells you nothing about how long it took to get that way.............................................................................................................YES ! "Inconsistency" In his version of the universe can expand space-time itself to cause what we see..but we are no allowed to invoke expansion in the universe to create a real history of the expansion of space that took place only over a time frame of 6000 years... ..............YES! Emotional pleas for his cause...............................................................................YES! A world view that is consistent with itself first and second Logic observations and experience...priceless& for everything else there is Master Card...oh i mean..............NO! ----- Original Message ---- From: Bernie Brauer <bbrauer777@xxxxxxxxx> To: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2008 11:47:47 AM Subject: RE: The Christain Bible AND True Science AND Logic Declare: The Earth is NOT Moving!! Forwarded to Neville, Philip, Marshall, Allen Daves by Bernie EDWARD BABINSKI <leonardo3@xxxxxxx> wrote: Hi Bernie, I rec'd an email from you advocating geocentrism, and how much better off human society would be if everyone agreed that the cosmos circles the earth daily (by the power of God). Personally, I think we're all a long way from Eden and even in a world of geocentrists, people would find plenty to disagree about. I am not anxious to become a geocentrist if only because it involves a lot of "explanations" that don't ring true. The speed of every planet, star, and galaxy lying further away than Saturn has to be faster than the speed of light in order for the cosmos to be revolving around the earth daily, many many times faster-than-light in the case of the furthers galaxies that astronomers so far have detected. A similar question arises if you are a young-earth creationist because any object in space lying more than 6,000 or so light-years away is not giving off light created by that object but just light created "in transit." Such light is FAKE HISTORY, and not showing us the objects as they once were, nor showing us what really happened in the past out there in space. It's all FAKE HISTORY beyond 6,000 light-years away. And if the cosmos is young and does not need to last longer than the time humanity has left on earth, then why were stars created to burn via a fussion reaction that makes them last for billions of years? The lifetime of the average star is billions of years. *(See at the end of this email the admissions by young-earth creationist astronomers concerning this question, and concerning the evidence that exists in favor of stellar evolution.) And if God "made" the sun, moon, and stars and "set them in the firmament above the earth" on the "fourth day" of creation "to light the earth and for signs and seasons on earth," then why are the vast majority of stars invisible to human beings? The average human, like the ancients, can see only about 6-7 thousand stars in the sky on a cloudless night in the desert, all stars just from our single galaxy, the Milky Way. There's over a hundred billion other galaxies out there that we didn't even know about until the first nearby galaxies were spotted at the beginning of the 1900s with superior-made telescopes. So the vast majority of the cosmos does NOT appear to have been made and set in the firmament to "light the earth" nor for "signs and seasons" on earth. The vast majority of the cosmos, even it's object that give off light, were invisible to human beings until the 1900s. Same goes for the moons that astronomers discovered circling nearby planets only after the invention of the telescope. The Bible only mentions God creating "two great lights [literal Hebrew word is "lamps"] only two of them. One lamp was the sun, the other was the moon. And they were created "for signs and seasons on earth" and to "rule the day and the night." However even our moon abdicates it's "rule of the night" for a few nights each month when it goes completely dark. And even worse, astronomers with telescopes discovered planets in our system with far more moons ["great lamps"] than we have, yet there is no evidence that any human-like ceatures live on those planets, so why create so many moons to "rule the night" and "for signs and seasons" on those other planets? And the number of telescopically discovered stars is now in the trillions which makes one wonder why the Biblical authors didn't mention that our sun was like unto countless "great lamps" in the sky, instead of writing, "He created TWO great lamps, the sun and the moon...and the stars also." With the Bible never demonstrating any knowldge that there are trillions of "great lamps" out there, each built to last for billions of years, and not unlike our own. Also, there's more evidence astronomically speaking than I can even share with you concerning the fact that new stars are forming and have been discovered in various stages of formation in thick interstellar dust clouds/nebulae. We've even seen some of them bloom forth, like Fu Orionus. Astronomers have also measured the speed of inwardly collapsing gases in such clouds and the rise of temperatures inside the area toward which the dust is collapsing. Yet the biblical authors placed the creation of the sun, moon, "and the stars also," on "fourth day" of the Genesis story. Yet God is creating stars still. We also have increasing evidence of nearby "solar" systems that feature a star with one or more visible/detectible planets. Such stars also feature rings of matter that can be seen slowly revolving around the star. Such nearby systems look very much like the one we live in, with a central star and a ring of matter and planets revolving around the central star. Also, our galaxy, the Milky Way, looks very much like other spiral-shaped galaxies, over a hundred billion of them, with all the stars of each galaxy revolving around the center of that galaxy. To be a geocentrist in this day and age is to have to face lots of questions like the ones I mentioned concerning planets and galaxies travelling multiple-times the speed-of-light if they lay anywhere further out in space than Saturn does; and fake history for all objects lying beyond 6,000 light-years away; and stars being built to last for billions of years; and new stars continuing to arise from dust clouds; and plenty of planets out there circling nearby stars (with the planets near us in our own system having plenty of extra moons circling them); and the questions concerning why so many stars are invisible when it comes to lighting the earth or for signs and seasons on earth; and the way we can see rings of matter and planets circling nearby stars, and also see all the stars in each galaxy circling each galaxy's center. In place of all this you and Bouw give us "geocentrism" in which literally every object circles the earth? And you even claim that converting people to geocentrism will solve the world's inter-religious differences and geo-political and economic problems as well, which I doubt. One Evangelical Christian and man of science, George Cooper, who contributes to the Evangelical Christian listserv run by "The American Scientific Affiliation" recently had this to say about Geocentrism: "There is a better argument against Geocentrism. Astronomers can measure the angular movement of the Earth relative to distant quasars to an accuracy of about 20 milliarcseconds, IIRC. There is a continuous program that monitors the Earth's minute changes to its rotation rate: IRES: http://www.iers.org/MainDisp.csl?pid=163-253 So the so-called 'immovable' Earth is constantly moving by twisting back and forth due to primarily air mass current changes. The 2004 tsunami produced a change that was measurable by IRES, too. "Though lengthy, there is a thread debunking the Galileo Was Wrong supporters at bautforum.com": http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/47291-galileo-wrong.html Besides the above, please take the time to read my online pieces VARIETIES OF SCIENTIFIC CREATIONISM http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/geocentrism/scientific_creationism.html EVOLVING INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE'S "COSMOLOGICAL TEACHINGS"--OR--DOES THE BIBLE "TEACH SCIENCE?" http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/geocentrism/cosmology.html GEOCENTRISM articles (both from a biblical and scientific perspective) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/2/ Young-Earth Creationists Admit Difficulties Trying to Explain Away the Evidence in Favor of Stellar Evolution http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/babinski/hypothesis.html Ed -------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:52:56 -0700 From: bbrauer777@xxxxxxxxx Subject: The Christain Bible AND True Science AND Logic Declare: The Earth is NOT Moving!! To: leonardo3@xxxxxxx The Christian Bible AND True ( non-theoretical ) Science AND Logic declare: The Sun Orbits the Earth Daily and The Earth is NOT Moving!! Facts: by Marshall Hall * There is NO proof that the Earth rotates on You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.