have any of you heard of blitz basic. i use that right now but i want to move onto the torque game engine. Is torque a good game engine and what would be a good book for that. On 9/24/07, kuon <kuon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > This thread deserve to be in some guinness book, not for it's length, but > mostly for it's content. > > When I read what people say, I can agree to nearly everything. > > > I'm a C coder, I always hated C++ because I think it add nothing needed to > C and it syntax is confusing (that is, more than C). > > > Obj-C on the other hand is nicer, but I don't think it's a replacement to > C. > > > I think language should be used for what they were created. Maybe I'm > wrong, maybe people will start throwing things at me, but here is how I use > today's languages: > > > C > For example, currently, I'm writing a network 3d game. > > > In that game, everything is in C except the UI which is in lua. Lua is > used for the UI because it's way more flexible, I can give the job to some > less experimented programmers, it keeps the game logic clean, and lua syntax > is more adapted for this. > > > A little example of what lua do well is in defining the interface, like: > C[1] = { > UsernameLbl = Label:new { > x = -150, > y = 250, > a_h = LEFT, > size = 'Big', > text = L['Username:'] > }, > UsernameFld = TextField:new { > x = -150, > y = 200, > a_h = LEFT, > size = 'Big', > K = {TAB = Login_FocusPasswordField, RETURN = Login_DoLogin, ENTER = > Login_DoLogin} > } > } > > > This is straight lua, then I can do C[1].UsernameFld to access my username > field. > > > > > Ruby > Yea, I do some Ruby. Actually, I use it for Ruby on Rails. I think Ruby is > perfectly suited for it. Mapping the objects to the database is really well > done in RoR. I know, many will argue about the design decision of RoR and > Ruby itself, but I know it's not an universal solution. But for new project, > it is really well suited. > > > I love the Ruby syntax because it's very short to get the job done, and > when you are writing a little online tool to manage the timeline of the game > lore (like I did), you are very happy with Ruby and Rails. > > > Ruby is also nice for testing, if I had to test some algorithm, I would > surely do it in Ruby as it has many good tools for it. > > > Lua > I think lua is a very elegant and clean scripting language. I also think > it sucks at debugging and finding errors, that's why (in the game I'm > working on) all the C underlayer is responsible for errors (of course, you > have to do the error in our own C API). > > > Lua is also, in my opinion, the best language to add into a bigger > application, a couple of C files and there you go! > > > Java > I did a lot of Java coding, I did a couple of WebObjects application, I > did some embedded java, I used Faces and some other web technologies. > Now, I don't do any Java, I replaced web coding with Ruby and Rails and I > don't have any project concerning embedded devices. > > > One of the problem of Java is the memory usage, this is mostly because > nearly all types are long and in object programming, this can grow very > large very quickly. But java has a lot of advantages: > - Virtual Machine > - You can do a Windows/Mac/linux/Solaris app in a jar and just bundle this > with very few hassle. > - It has a huge set of libraries. > > > But it also has some drawbacks: > - Memory footprint > - Language is not elegant, it's just C with perhaps 3 added syntax. > - Many API are not high level enough, even for a "high level" language, > but I think this is because Java was not thought as high level, but on this > I don't know and I just say many API could be simpler. (OK they changed a > lot now) > - It's sometime too easy to get the job done by copy pasting code. This is > an issue. Copy pasting is evil in coding, you can inspire yourself from some > code, but having to maintain code you do not understand is not good, in that > case, just use a lib. > > > Now, I'll say java is evolving to be better, java has a huge market and > it's becoming better every new release. If I have to make some logic that > quickly need to work on multi platforms (without any ifdef, and higher level > than just console, because C is very portable when you don't touch the GUI) > I'll use Java. > > > > > > > Objective-C > > > Ok, if you are still reading, there you go. > > > I think objc do things really well. It separate the object model from the > procedural model with: > > > for(i = 0; i < 10; i++) // Porcedural programming > [myObject doSomthing]; // OO programming > > > This is where it does things better than java and C++. > > > So, this is for the syntax. Then, I love the fact you can do plain C in > it, this is personal, I did C for quite some years now (about 14, but I'm > 23yo, so that's quite a lot for me). > > > I think, Obj-C is needed (I mean over C) exactly for what Apple uses it, > Application development. > > > Things like Notification center, autorelease pool, key value coding and > key value coding observation, nib files... Are juse in need of that > language. Of course, you could have made it simpler. But now I'm on 10.5(yea, > legally), and even if I can't speak about it, I can say I'm amazed. > I've been playing with computers since I was 4yo (I did some super paint on > an SE 30 back then, nothing fancy like many of you who are far more > experienced than me, but I still remember it), I tested gazillion of user > interfaces and I'm amazed. Apple job on the UI is incredible. Many things > just works (like drag and drop of nearly everything everywhere)... > > > I realize the logic needed to make it work. And to make it maintainable by > human beings like us, you need a tool, and Obj-C is that tool. It's a bit > like lua in my game, it's to maintain the UI, use it's functions... > > > I know many of you are mad at Apple deprecating things like they do. But > it's legitimate. Of course, I agree it should continue working and just > issue a warning. > > > I encourage the change. Yea, I know I'm young and I hope I can still live > quite some time and it might be more than some of you. I have a really high > respect for the work you did and will do, you helped me a great lot in my > life, and I know you will continue. Your wisdom in coding is great and it's > an honor to have learned from many of you, even if you don't know you helped > me. (I speak to a wider audience than just that mailing list) > > > It's fun, I started many sentences with I and they as they are aligned, > it's a fancy effect:) > > > > > We all know that there is nothing more frustrating than a change we didn't > want. But that's what make use move forward. There are good and bad changes, > but they all put our adaptation capabilities under stress, and this is what > makes us evolve. At least, this is what I think. I know I sound like a > crumpled newspaper or some idiot on the TV, I wish I did not but I know I > do. > > > Apple is doing great things, nobody can deny it, I agree with Zack and > other that it's at a cost which is too great sometimes. But I did the move > to 10.5 and I was really happy to see I had to do nothing except hitting > build to have all my apps working. Ok, there is no carbon apps in the lot, > there are some really old C code, of course, the game (nearly 1mio of C code > if you count the math libs which is quite big because of ASM for multiple > platforms) and a couple of Cocoa apps. I spent 1h putting my cross compiler > for windows back on line and there we go. > > > I know the problem is really about Carbon, but Apple stated, you'll have > to move to Cocoa. Again, as a young person, I took the move, and I recoded > all my apps from Carbon to Cocoa as soon as I had my first Mac OS X CD. It > was a pain, it was frustrating, sometimes, I just started from scratch, my > libs would not compile... But I had time for it, I was discovering something > new. > > > Now, many of you are older and "made" the computers as they are now. > Again, your work is incredible, it's with all of you that we are were we are > now. All the games you did, all of this. > > > But it's not because the game don't work anymore that it has been a lack > of time. I truly think all things should come an go, this includes myself. > Now it's time for Cocoa and OpenGL games. I encourage you to created new > games using those technologies. You can, as Zack did for dark > castle, revamp the game. I will feel immensely happy when the new dark > castle comes out. I know the old one passed away, and I keep it's good > memories with me. > > > > > I'm a bit sorry for this message, it was a pain to read, my english is far > from perfect and I'm very bad at explaining things. I'm the kind of person > overwhelmed by it's feeling and I could write a book to explain all of it. > > > As a final note, I encourage all of you to continue the hard work. I > really hope we will all be together in the train and nobody will be left > behind, I know it's utopic, but if I stopped being utopic, I would die right > away. > > > I wish you the best to all of you. > > > From a little rookie. > > -- > Kuon > > "Don't press that button." > http://goyman.com/ > Blog: http://kuon.goyman.com/ -- Reply, (r)(((???£ Ŝǖ"v@ˉ˘MśĦ ¢ ???)))(c)