Re: [foxboro] FDSI Issue

From: <tech.box42@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 19:25:12 -0400

While the Foxboro DCS has always had a forward migration / upgrade path, it was
never promised to be easy nor inexpensive.
Upgrading an I/O device can require a newer I/A / CCS, which will require a
newer AW, which could require an upgraded graphics package, which .... ;-)
And so it goes.

Jason Slade

________________________________________
From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of
Marcel Rameil <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 9:00:32 AM
To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [foxboro] FDSI Issue

Hi Brian,
I agree with your point: The FDC280 is not a form-fit replacement for the FDSI.
It needs a pair of Mesh Control Network switch ports, adding one needs a SysDef
change and a committed install, the baseplate form factor is different and we
need to change topology of fieldbus and Mesh Control Network cabling. When
existing FDSI infrastructures use a mix of hard wired and software tags in
logic together, they must be separated into different controllers when moving
from FDSI to FDC280. If they have been in the same compound, they have to be
moved to separate compounds with all the hassle and re-engineering controls,
HMI and historian that this needs - we are fully aware of all this.

You wrote:

If the FDC could support I/O it would be a non-issue!

That's absolutely correct and we have discussed this internaly literally dozens
of times in the last decades in several different formats, each time the
conversation ended with this unfortunately not seeming to be a viable business
option. I'm afraid to say that but for today, there is no realistic alternative
to keep existing FDSI connections alive other than to consider migrating them
to FDC280 connections. There are pros and cons with that move, e.g. when
software connections eventually could be consolidated, the resulting solution
can be implemented in a cost effective fashion. If people reason, that for
segregation of critical operations a separation to different FDC280s is a MUST,
the actual cost difference per FDC280 instance is eventually small compared to
the business value that having a high available connection brings to the
operation.

In summary, this is a mixed situation with ups and downs. On the positive side
we have a much larger processor with a lot more headroom for communication,
performance, bandwidth and capabilities, it can connect via copper or fiber
cables eventually via very long distances and it can handle 28000 OM tags per
processor, so the system's performance limit per processor is a lot higher
eventually compensating for the additional IPC connections a split of the logic
bvetbetween CPs and FDCs will bring.

It's like in many situations of life: The glass can be half full or half empty,
it depends on our own mindset and attitude. I ask us all to think the "half
full" way, investigate the situation, explore options for link consolidation
and ways to modernize the system's infrastructure, if you have mutliple FDSIs,
you could consider replacing some of them step by step, consolidating links to
fewer FDC280s, placing the FDSIs you rip out into your stock, sustaining the
overall installation with moderate effort and good operational value.

Let us know how we can help you moving forward, sustaining your operations in
creative ways at your schedule and budget.

Thanks.

Best regards - Liebe GrÃ¼ÃŸe -
Marcel Rameil

Schneider Electric
Global Offer Manager Control Software, EcoStruxure Foxboro DCS
Product Marketing, Industry Business, Process Automation
https://tinyurl.com/Foxboro-DCS

-----Original Message-----
From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Long, Brian
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 14:41
To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [foxboro] FDSI Issue

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Curious how other customers are handling the FDSI issue.  The infrastructure
(Fiber runs, new switches, cabinet space, etc )required to replace FDSI in some
cases is not practical.  Also, would require in some cases a complete re-do of
controls, displays, local historians, plant historians, etc.

If the FDC could support I/O it would be a non-issue!

Anyone?  Thought?

Thanks,
Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Marcel Rameil
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 4:41 AM
To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [foxboro] Modbus RTU over Ethernet - FBM 232/233

Hi everyone,
I'd like to comment to this thread from the Schneider Electric perspective:

Adam wrote:

[...]as we have no spare FBM230/231s

Gheyll wrote:

[...]it may be necessary to convert the Ethernet signal to RS485 and
use a FBM230/231

For those strategic thoughts it is important to understand, that the Field
Device System Integrator (FDSI) platform (FBMs 230, 231, 232 and 232, serial
and Ethernet, single and redundant) is based on CPUs, Memory chips, ethernet
interfaces and an operating system, which are all far beyond the end of their
lives, the OS is a big cybersecurity risk and not supported and patched by the
vendor anymore since many years, and we are totally unable to source the
hardware components needed to build further modules even for repairs of
existing installations.

The serial FDSIs FBM230 and FBM231 have been removed from sales in Feb. 2023
and the Ethernet variants FBM232 and FBM233 are announced to be removed from
sale in Feb. 2024. We have done some last time buy at ridiculous prices for
components for those modules, but we expect a shorter MATURE lifecyle period
for these FBMs of guaranteed support as the demand is high and we just don't
have parts. So, expect the support for the FDSI modules to become difficult
very soon.

Because of this foreseeable situation we have been building a replacement offer
we call the Field Device Controller FDC280, which features serial and ethernet
ports, downloadble protocols, a multi-protocol feature (multiple protocols and
multiple instances of the same protocol can reside on the same (pair of)
modules). Available protocols are Triconex TSAA, Modbus RTU and Modbus TCP,
client and server, single and redundant, OPC UA Client, Ethernet/IP and
Profinet in varying release phases and various custom drivers and is
cycbersecurity certified according to EDSA level 1 (IEC62443). The FDC280
supports up to 8000 blocks, min. 100ms cycle time, max. 28.000 in the OM
Scanner database (documented limits apply) and the FDC280 is the preferred
platfrom and will be sustained going forward. Minimum I/A Series version is
Control Core Services (formerly known as I/A Series) 9.3.

Find the data sheet here:
http://paresource.schneider-electric.com/iaseries/pss/41h2/41h2fdc280.pdf

Adam asked:

Do you know if it is possible for Schneider to develop a custom driver for
this use case?

We will definitely not develop anything for the FDSI platform, at some point we
need to stop riding a dead horse. ðŸ˜‰ For the FDC280 however, things are
always possible - if there is a business case. Please work with your Schneider
Electric representative to discover options.

Hope this was helpful.

Let me know at any time, if you have any product strategy questions on the
Foxboro DCS.

Best regards - Liebe GrÃ¼ÃŸe -
Marcel Rameil

Schneider Electric
Global Offer Manager Control Software, EcoStruxure Foxboro DCS Product
Marketing, Industry Business, Process Automation
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-----Original Message-----
From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Adam Creed
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 8:08
To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [foxboro] Modbus RTU over Ethernet - FBM 232/233

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Thanks for the info. We are discussing potentially converting from what they
call "Ethernet RTU" to modbus TCP on their end, rather than ours, as we have no
spare FBM230/231s.
This is rather an old system it seems, the only other type of communication it
supports is standard Modbus RTU, which they call "Serial RTU".

Do you know if it is possible for Schneider to develop a custom driver for this
use case?

Thanks.

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 17:37, gheyIl <breandan789@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

A Modbus message has a CRC (error checking) packet at the end for
serial comms (RS232/422/485).
When a Modbus is transmitted via Ethernet, the error checking is done
at the Ethernet layer and so this Modbus CRC is not included. This is
the type of Modbus used by the FBM232/233.
However, some devices will take the serial Modbus message (with its
CRC) and wrap that whole thing in an Ethernet packet (which has its
own error checking). This type of Modbus is NOT understood by the
FBM232/233, because it interprets the embedded Modbus CRC as part of the data
packet.

Unfortunately, vendors use a variety of ways to describe their Modbus
comms, not all of which are consistent - Modbus-TCP,
Modbus-over-Ethernet, etc.

I do not believe there is a custom FDSI driver that can understand the
"embedded CRC" type of message. If the vendor cannot accommodate
Modbus TCP (using the Ethernet error checking), it may be necessary to
convert the Ethernet signal to RS485 and use a FBM230/231.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:57ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢'Â¬Ã‚Â¯AM Adam Creed
<adamcreed60@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Hi everyone,
We have a system that requires us to interface using Modbus RTU over
Ethernet, this is new to me as I had assumed RTU ÃƒÂ¿erial but this
appears to not be the case.

Does anyone know if this is possible? Our FBMs are configured for
Modbus TCP, does a custom driver exist to allow the use of Modbus
RTU over Ethernet?

Thanks,
Adam.

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Re: [foxboro] FDSI Issue

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