[foxboro] FDSI Issue

From: "Marcel Rameil" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ("Marcel.Rameil")
To: "foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:18:06 +0000

Philip, readers,
We hear you loud and clear, we heard you in Chattanooga on the SouthEastern
user conference and in Foxboro in early May on the Process Automation
Innovation Days as well - you're referring to an ongoing conversation that is
very present in our organization.

My colleague Thad Frost is the responsible Offer Manager in our team that looks
after the embedded products - and hence also after the FDC280 and FDSIs. He is
fully aware of the situation, the desire from you guys and of the challenges to
make it happen, we have frequent discussions internally on how to overcome the
challenges in this context, and he has seen the messages we're exchanging here
in this mailing list in the last days.

And Patrick (Martens), with all respect, if it would be so easy that the
situation is as it is just because a few people would not listen to customers
and we could just fix this with (better) listening to customers, I would be
very glad to fix this situation with doing so. Believe me, we do listen and it
still is not easy to solve. We clearly see the situation, we understand the
consequences and we are aware of the disappointment and we look into options,
that are technically feasible, that would be available in time when needed,
that fit into our long-term strategy and which result in a viable business, and
there is no easy, obvious path forward.

It is good that you guys express clearly the need and address our leaders in
forums like the above mentioned user groups as this gives some weight and
emphasis on these requirements with our leaders.

Sorry for not having any better news today.
Let me know if you have questions.

Thanks!

Best regards - Liebe GrÃ¼Ãe -
Marcel Rameil

Schneider Electric
Global Offer Manager Control Software, EcoStruxure Foxboro DCS
Product Marketing, Industry Business, Process Automation
https://tinyurl.com/Foxboro-DCS

-----Original Message-----
From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Pulas, Philip G.
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 16:18
To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [foxboro] [EXTERNAL] Re: FDSI Issue

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Marcel,
With the introduction of the FDSI FBM as a new replacement for the INT30, you
introduced a new architecture option that included placing the FDSI FBMs out in
the field away from a MESH connection. Now, Schneider is telling many customers
that they made a very bad infrastructure decisionâthat we were encouraged to
makeâbecause the INT30 replacement FDC280 didnât come out until ~20 years
later. The cost difference between an FDC280 pair to replace an FDSI FBM is not
just the modules themselves, but the entire infrastructure cost needs to
install them needs to be considered when replacing them with an FDC280. Now,
weâve put the FDSI FBMs out:

  1.  in the field over fiber (need to run new fiber to add FDC280 pair because
need to keep existing spare fiber used for FCM2f2s)
  2.  in the field over fieldbus cable on 200 Series baseplates attached to 100
Series migration racks (need to run new fiber to add FDC280 pair and most
likely a new cabinet just for the FDC280 because the 100 Series migration rack
fit just right)
  3.  in the field with the FCP280 (need to run new fiber to add FDC280 pair
because need to keep existing spare fiber used for FCP280)

In some cases we might need to run more power because we donât have enough,
or need to replace smaller power supplies with larger power supplies when
non-Foxboro ones were used. We have a very large, distributed FDSI install base
and, where we have PLCs, almost always with additional 200 Series FBMs because
temperature and power monitoring through a PLC (like our Triconex SIS) is much
more expensive than through the DCS.

We probably have 40+ FDSI installs all in different areas with no possibility,
nor desire, to consolidate them. We have them segregated for a reason by
process unit, as our process units do not come down at the same time.

Thanks,
Philip Pulas
Foxboro Steering Committee Chairman

From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Marcel Rameil
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 6:01 AM
To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [foxboro] FDSI Issue

Hi Brian, I agree with your point: The FDC280 is not a form-fit replacement for
the FDSI. It needs a pair of Mesh Control Network switch ports, adding one
needs a SysDef change and a committed install, the baseplate form factor is
different

Hi Brian,

I agree with your point: The FDC280 is not a form-fit replacement for the FDSI.
It needs a pair of Mesh Control Network switch ports, adding one needs a SysDef
change and a committed install, the baseplate form factor is different and we
need to change topology of fieldbus and Mesh Control Network cabling. When
existing FDSI infrastructures use a mix of hard wired and software tags in
logic together, they must be separated into different controllers when moving
from FDSI to FDC280. If they have been in the same compound, they have to be
moved to separate compounds with all the hassle and re-engineering controls,
HMI and historian that this needs - we are fully aware of all this.

You wrote:

If the FDC could support I/O it would be a non-issue!

That's absolutely correct and we have discussed this internaly literally dozens
of times in the last decades in several different formats, each time the
conversation ended with this unfortunately not seeming to be a viable business
option. I'm afraid to say that but for today, there is no realistic alternative
to keep existing FDSI connections alive other than to consider migrating them
to FDC280 connections. There are pros and cons with that move, e.g. when
software connections eventually could be consolidated, the resulting solution
can be implemented in a cost effective fashion. If people reason, that for
segregation of critical operations a separation to different FDC280s is a MUST,
the actual cost difference per FDC280 instance is eventually small compared to
the business value that having a high available connection brings to the
operation.

In summary, this is a mixed situation with ups and downs. On the positive side
we have a much larger processor with a lot more headroom for communication,
performance, bandwidth and capabilities, it can connect via copper or fiber
cables eventually via very long distances and it can handle 28000 OM tags per
processor, so the system's performance limit per processor is a lot higher
eventually compensating for the additional IPC connections a split of the logic
bvetbetween CPs and FDCs will bring.

It's like in many situations of life: The glass can be half full or half empty,
it depends on our own mindset and attitude. I ask us all to think the "half
full" way, investigate the situation, explore options for link consolidation
and ways to modernize the system's infrastructure, if you have mutliple FDSIs,
you could consider replacing some of them step by step, consolidating links to
fewer FDC280s, placing the FDSIs you rip out into your stock, sustaining the
overall installation with moderate effort and good operational value.

Let us know how we can help you moving forward, sustaining your operations in
creative ways at your schedule and budget.

Thanks.

Best regards - Liebe GrÃÂ¼ÃÅ¸e -

Marcel Rameil

Schneider Electric

Global Offer Manager Control Software, EcoStruxure Foxboro DCS

Product Marketing, Industry Business, Process Automation

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-----Original Message-----

From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> On Behalf
Of Long, Brian

Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 14:41

To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: [foxboro] FDSI Issue

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

________________________________

Curious how other customers are handling the FDSI issue.  The infrastructure
(Fiber runs, new switches, cabinet space, etc )required to replace FDSI in some
cases is not practical.  Also, would require in some cases a complete re-do of
controls, displays, local historians, plant historians, etc.

If the FDC could support I/O it would be a non-issue!

Anyone?  Thought?

Thanks,

Brian

-----Original Message-----

From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> On Behalf
Of Marcel Rameil

Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 4:41 AM

To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: Re: [foxboro] Modbus RTU over Ethernet - FBM 232/233

Hi everyone,

I'd like to comment to this thread from the Schneider Electric perspective:

Adam wrote:

[...]as we have no spare FBM230/231s

Gheyll wrote:

[...]it may be necessary to convert the Ethernet signal to RS485 and

use a FBM230/231

For those strategic thoughts it is important to understand, that the Field
Device System Integrator (FDSI) platform (FBMs 230, 231, 232 and 232, serial
and Ethernet, single and redundant) is based on CPUs, Memory chips, ethernet
interfaces and an operating system, which are all far beyond the end of their
lives, the OS is a big cybersecurity risk and not supported and patched by the
vendor anymore since many years, and we are totally unable to source the
hardware components needed to build further modules even for repairs of
existing installations.

The serial FDSIs FBM230 and FBM231 have been removed from sales in Feb. 2023
and the Ethernet variants FBM232 and FBM233 are announced to be removed from
sale in Feb. 2024. We have done some last time buy at ridiculous prices for
components for those modules, but we expect a shorter MATURE lifecyle period
for these FBMs of guaranteed support as the demand is high and we just don't
have parts. So, expect the support for the FDSI modules to become difficult
very soon.

Because of this foreseeable situation we have been building a replacement offer
we call the Field Device Controller FDC280, which features serial and ethernet
ports, downloadble protocols, a multi-protocol feature (multiple protocols and
multiple instances of the same protocol can reside on the same (pair of)
modules). Available protocols are Triconex TSAA, Modbus RTU and Modbus TCP,
client and server, single and redundant, OPC UA Client, Ethernet/IP and
Profinet in varying release phases and various custom drivers and is
cycbersecurity certified according to EDSA level 1 (IEC62443). The FDC280
supports up to 8000 blocks, min. 100ms cycle time, max. 28.000 in the OM
Scanner database (documented limits apply) and the FDC280 is the preferred
platfrom and will be sustained going forward. Minimum I/A Series version is
Control Core Services (formerly known as I/A Series) 9.3.

Find the data sheet here:

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Adam asked:

Do you know if it is possible for Schneider to develop a custom driver for
this use case?

We will definitely not develop anything for the FDSI platform, at some point we
need to stop riding a dead horse. Ã°Å¸Ëâ° For the FDC280 however, things are
always possible - if there is a business case. Please work with your Schneider
Electric representative to discover options.

Hope this was helpful.

Let me know at any time, if you have any product strategy questions on the
Foxboro DCS.

Best regards - Liebe GrÃÂ¼ÃÅ¸e -

Marcel Rameil

Schneider Electric

Global Offer Manager Control Software, EcoStruxure Foxboro DCS Product
Marketing, Industry Business, Process Automation

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[foxboro] FDSI Issue

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