[espeak-gaeilge] Re: feedback on latest version of eSpeak.ga
- From: RobbieS <robbiesin@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: espeak-gaeilge@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:36:40 +0000
Ronan,
Things might not be so bad with the 'r'. The 'rr' (double broad r) appears
to be excellent, and some of the slender 'r' sound incidents come out quite
well. IEven if the slender 'r' is irredemable working with the current
phonemes, the broad double-r sound could be used instead (as is often the
case in Connacht Irish).
Slender 'r' in Ulster, is more like an English 'y' at the end of words, and
more like the broad 'rr' at the beginning of words, imo. Actually, most of
the examples I can find of the pure slender 'r' being used as an initial or
second consonant, are in dialects of yore (Leinster being my particular
object of study).
I will of course record broad 'l', slender 'r' and both 't' sounds, when I
get a decent accessible recorder.
One more thing, my comment regarding the length of the 'a' in particular
related to the word 'bata', I'm not sure how often it happens elsewhere,
but at least, it's something to look out for.
Regards,
Robbie
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Ronan McGuirk <ronan.p.mcguirk@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> Hi Robbie,
> Thanks for a very comprehensive response.
>
> At first glance, I can deal with many of these fairly quickly.
>
> As discussed previously, the slender r and the broad l will probably
> need input from Jonathan.
>
> Give me a day or two to go through this set and apply changes and I
> will post a new version together with a list of outstanding matters
> that we will need to follow up with Jonathan.
>
> If anyone else has further observations can you please let me have
> them by the end of the week.
>
> Many thanks again.
> Ronan
>
> On 23/01/2013, RobbieS <robbiesin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Well done to Ronan on this latest update - imo. quite an improvement on
> the
> > last version.
> >
> > Below is my initial tuppence-worth on the sounds. I begin with two
> general
> > points, and then give a numbered (1-20) set of more detailed
> observations:
> >
> >
> > Firstly, descrete numbers are currently aon dó, trí, ceathar etc. In
> > Irish, discrete numbers are preceded by the letter ‘A’; for example, a
> > haon, a dó, a trí, a ceathar, a cúig etc. This change would aid to
> > clarity, as well as being more gramatically correct.
> >
> >
> >
> > Remaining on the basics, currently many of the consontants emit an
> > indistinguishible phoneme after a keystroke (i.e., when being pronounced
> as
> > a letter by eSpeak). My suggestion is that the pronunciation of these of
> > each letter of the alphabet should follow Gaelic and not English
> > pronunciation; i.e., forget the English ay bee see dee ef jee haich, eye,
> > jay etc. and Irish aa bee kay, di ay, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. The Slender T may need to sound more like the English *ch *as in
> Chair,
> > so that this slender ‘t’ can be more easily differentiated from the
> slender
> > ‘s’ (which has a *sh *sound). Another option would be to replace the
> > current sledner ‘t’ in eSpeak with an English ‘t’; this would give the
> > slender ‘t’ as it is pronounced in the Munster dialect. The current
> > *ch *albeit
> > strengthened, has the advantage of being used in the other two dialects (
> > Connacht and Ulster).
> >
> >
> >
> > B the slender ‘t’ can be made to sound like an English ‘t’, thus matching
> > the Munster dialect.
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. The Broad t is difficult to distinguish from the broad d.
> >
> > Everything in the phonemes seems to be right. The ‘d’ is voiced and the
> > ‘t’ is not. However, for some reason it is difficult to differentiate
> when
> > reading, or even if you write them side by side (e.g., tá, dá, dá, tá).
> >
> >
> >
> > 3. The ‘a’ vowel-sound needs to be shortened. Currently it’s not easy
> to
> > tell the difference between ‘a’ and a-fada.
> >
> >
> >
> > 4. The Irish ae vowel sound should sound like an e-fada, but of course,
> a
> > preceding consonant will remain broad (e.g., lae).
> >
> >
> >
> > 5. the ‘ai’ vowel-sounds are great, but in the word ‘maith’, it should
> > sound more like an ordinary ‘a’ sound and less like an’e’ (as it
> currently
> > does). Two examples of ‘ai’ used to make a plural (instead of just ‘a’
> by
> > itself), are cait and baill. In both of these cases, the ‘ai’ has the
> > sound of ‘ui’ or ‘uí’.
> >
> > The ‘ai’ is good in ‘saibhir’, but the ‘bhir’ bit doesn’t
> sound
> > right. It sounds like bhyir; the y being surplus to requirement; also,
> the
> > slender ‘r’ sound might be improved on here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 6. Strange how the slender ‘l’ in abhaile is perfect, but in ‘baile’ it
> > sounds more like a broad ‘l’.
> >
> >
> >
> > 7. the ‘ao’ vowel sound.
> >
> > eSpeak pronounces the ‘ao’ vowel-sound in ‘baol’ excellently; i.e.,
> > something like ‘bwayol’ as a more anglicised spelling of the phonetic
> might
> > read. However, for example, in the words “caol”, “faobhar”, “gaoth”,
> > “maorga”, naoi, and Paorach, this important ‘w’-sound is currently absent
> > in eSpeak. Where ‘ao’ is preceded by a d, ll, (n sometimes), s or t,
> this
> > ‘w’-sound is not necessary, so, eSpeak is okay on that score.
> >
> >
> >
> > 8. the word ‘ocht’ meaning eight currently sounds too much like the word
> > ‘ucht’ meaning chest or bosom. I’m thinkin’ this ‘o’ sounds needs to
> sound
> > a bit more like the English ‘o’ as in ‘pot’, although it does need to
> > retain the much of the ‘u’ element.
> >
> >
> >
> > 9. for the most part, the ‘amh’ and ‘abh’ sounds are grand, but some
> > exceptsions to this I’ve found where a v sound is given instead of ‘w’ or
> > vise versa, are: damh, gabh, and
> >
> > amhail,
> >
> >
> >
> > 10. Where the consonants ‘l’ or ‘n’ are followed immediately by the
> > letters bh, an extra vowel-sound (like a really quick ‘a’) needs to be
> > inserted between the consonant and the ‘bh’. Such words include balbh,
> > balbhán, banbh, leanbh, seanbhean etc. Espeak manages the bh preceded by
> > an ‘r’ excellently, even knowing to handle ‘searbh’ and ‘searbhas’
> > differently.
> >
> >
> >
> > 11. As mentioned last Thursday, eSpeak is giving the ‘bh’ in seanbhean,
> a
> > ‘w’-sound instead of a ‘v’-sound.
> >
> >
> >
> > 12. eSpeak handles ‘adh’ vowel-sounds well, except for this exception
> I’ve
> > found: the word leadhb should sound like ‘lyibe’ (rhyming with ‘Jibe).
> >
> >
> >
> > 13. this may not be a problem, but I’ll mention it for consideration
> > anyway. The ‘ea’-sound coming after the letters ‘b’ or ‘f’ or ‘p’ don’t
> > tend to pronounce the ‘e’ so much as eSpeak currently does. E.g.,
> beacha,
> > feasa’ or ‘peata’.
> >
> >
> >
> > 14. A very small adjustment here: it involves the ‘dh’ that comes after
> > the letter i. this is to be found especially in transcriptions of older
> > text which retain the obsolete spelling (e.g., sídhe instead of sí for
> > fairies (genative)). Ithis ‘idh’ has a different function sometimes,
> where
> > it is used to conote a ‘y’-sound as in the English word ‘by’. An example
> > of this is ‘paidhre’ or ‘péidhre’ instead of péire. Another example of
> > this, but in caighdeán spelling, is ‘oidhreacht, which should sound
> > lomething like eye-rokht. eSpeak makes a slightly better job of
> ‘oidhir’,
> > but still, it should rhyme ith English tire. **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ’
> >
> >
> >
> > 15. The slender r is better than it was, but is either inconsistant, or
> > could do with improving, imo. This could take an analysis of its own (on
> > another day).
> >
> >
> >
> > 16. As mentioned on Thursounday, the ‘oi’ vowel-sound with current
> eSpeak
> > can be patchy.
> >
> > “oibre” is pronounced well, but eSpeak strangely changes to an incorrect
> > “oi” vowel-sound if you write “hoibre” (genitive case after the definite
> > article).
> >
> > Doiléir has problems with ‘oi’, slender l and slender r.
> i.e.,
> > the l and the r ought to be more slender. If this is done, then maybe
> the
> > ‘oi’ might sound more normal here.
> >
> > Gan mhoill = without delay, but the mh should sound more
> like a
> > v, and the oill should sound more like a ‘aoíl’ (or even, in another
> > dialect, vyle – rhyming with style). Currently eSpeak makes it sound a
> > little like ‘an bhfuil’.
> >
> > There are some instances in which the ‘’oi’ should be given
> an
> > ‘e’ sound (albeit any consonant which precedes it should be broad and any
> > which follows should be slender – of course). Coir (with a sort of
> ‘quer’
> > sound), soir, thoir.
> >
> > ‘coite’ should sound more like ‘quiche’. Same goes for
> > coiteanna or coitiannta (or coitianntachta).
> >
> > Poill (holes) can be like ‘pweel’ or ‘pwyle’ rhyming with
> > English steel or tile.
> >
> >
> >
> > 17. uinn, inn, uim and im.
> >
> > ‘grinn’ shouldn’t be nearly identical with English ‘grin’.
> I’m
> > thinkin’ the ‘I’ should have a longer sound.
> >
> > The same goes for the i-sound in cruinn and suim.
> >
> > I think ‘im’ (butter) should sould rhyme with English “seem”.
> >
> >
> >
> > 18. the word ‘anall’ is coming out strange: firstly, the emphasis should
> > be very much on the second syllable; secondly, the *all *sound should
> sound
> > like the English word ‘owl’. eSpeak says ‘thall’ perfectly.
> >
> >
> >
> > 19. The slender t doesn’t seem to be happening in ‘beirt’ or ‘triúir’.
> >
> >
> >
> > 20. slender and broad l.
> >
> > It would be great to have the Gaelic broad l sound; I don’t know if the
> > phoneme is in the eSpeak library, but I can only explain it hear to be
> like
> > the Arabic ‘l’ when they say Alah etc. Having this ‘l’ would aid
> > comprehension and clarity (even though its on the decline.
> >
> > The slender ‘l’ is inconsistant: contrast ‘abhaile’ where it
> is
> > present, to ‘baile’ where it isn’t quite; i.e., it has the
> > Munsterslender-l, which is like the English ‘l’.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Robbie
> >
>
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