A very good question.
I honestly don't know.
Op 5/04/2016 om 11:57 schreef Roberto Lo Giacco:
So....how do we proceed? :-D
On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Jan Baeyens <jan@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jan@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Op 1/04/2016 om 17:49 schreef Roberto Lo Giacco:
Ok, let me clarify my reasoning for my proposals:It is probably me but I hate these abbreviations. They are good
*
Eclipse MCU
Since we do support more than just Arduino or even AVR based
boards it would be nice IMHO to declare it clearly. Other
"highly named" projects in the Eclipse ecosystem get their
name based on what they do provide in acronym format...
Eclipse JDT (Java Development Toolkit), CDT, STS, BIRT,
etc... So that was the rationale behind this name, which
actually doesn't carry much about Arduino (a popular name we
might want to leverage), but that doesn't mean the Arduino
word shouldn't be mentioned over and over in the description,
bringing the search engines to return it among the highest
results for "arduino eclipse".
for people thinking in words -which I do not do-. You probably
experienced the pain to find PDE to install in eclipse.
Also, since MCU does not meet any of the 3 criteria I put forward
it makes me shiver and think NO NO NOOOOOOO.
Arduino and eclipse are 2 main keywords. I think we all agree on
* Arduino Eclipse
This is simply a name merge of the two worlds we are bringing
together, without having to specify the plugin word, which
seems reductive at this stage.
that. But to me it is not saying what it is. So I would add a
third word where IDE seems most fitted to me.
I haven't even thought about it. If you say capitalize I will. but
* Please also consider the uppercase E in eclipse: I believe
that's relevant in our case.
you know Jantje and spelling .... I don't guarantee good results. ;-)
Extension is not adding anything. I mean off-course it is an
* Arduino Eclipse Extension
On top of the above this name specifies we are extending
Eclipse, but not saying if this is a product or a plugin as
they do both exists. It's quite a common name suffix in the
Eclipse world, indicating they are based on something else
(like we do) but providing additional functionalities (like
we do).
extension (as in not a reduction). Have you ever heard something
like: If you install this tool it will allow you to do less. Well,
actually I have, like a virus or a worm or hack me software ...
We are not yet at discussing order of words.
* Eclipse Arduino Extension
Sorting the names differently is not going to change much, I
admit it, but I believe we are going to give higher
importance to one or the other worlds we are merging with
this software.
Nobody proposed something with product in it. To me product scores
I also never heard of something eclipse-based with named with a
product suffix, at least not in the marketplace.Obviously we are
providing a bundled solution where you don't have to download the
two things separately and on top of which we assure
compatibility... That's considered to be a product in the eclipse
world, but people outside of the eclipse plugin development
circle will probably misunderstand that... That's why none of the
names I suggested include product...
3 times 0 on the criteria I put forward.
Also I believe calling it a plugin is now reductive... and to beI fully agree here. I think feature scores 3 times 0 on the
precise toward the eclipse naming we are now delivering a
feature, a set of plugins.
As feature is such a broad word and also having a different
meaning outside of the eclipse plugin development circle, I
believe extension is the perfect match, if something must be added.
criteria I put forward.
I myself have a long history with eclipse (as a user) and I have
Now, i will not debate on the IDE vs non-IDE topic itself, but
please consider I'm a long term Eclipse user and all my
considerations are related to that world. I've started playing
with Arduino 3-4 years ago, but I've been using Eclipse from a
very long time and in that world the IDE acronym is not used in
the context we do use it.
been very close to eclipse for extended periods. I have a
"professional software development background" since 1991 using
pascal, quickwinc, visual studio, borland studio, and many more.
But I really do not see what you want to point at here. The both
use IDE for integrated development environment. (see links). But
even if Arduino and eclipse see IDE as something completely
different .... I think it is we who decide whether we call our
toddler IDE or not. And IDE does score 3 times 1 on the criteria I
put forward.
https://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/Environment
https://eclipse.org/ide/
It has a nice ring to it. I'm not 100% convinced yet. Keep going :-)
In the meanwhile I came out with a new name: Arduclipse :-D
No we are discussing using arguments, reasoning and rationale. We
Obviously I'm not arguing , jsut trying to clarify my reasoning
and rationale, I hope this comes across clearly, but if it
doesn't, please re-read the above thinking at me smiling about
this *huge* naming conversation we are having :)
come from different cultures with different backgrounds with
different visions. So it is normal we disagree and as civilized
people we use reason and rational to convince each other and not
bombs.
Regards,
Roberto
On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Wim Jongman
<wim.jongman@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:wim.jongman@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I like Arduino Eclipse IDE
I like Roberto's reasoning but IMHO we should not put to much
semantics in the name.
When I want to find an eclipse IDE for arduino this is
exactly what I would google.
On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Jan Baeyens <jan@xxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jan@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
For the record. I didn't get the first mail as well.
I'm fully aware of the consequences of name changes. And
I'm pleased to have a discussion about it. I was updating
the pages and when I saw things that did not fit the
definition I proposed I changed it. As I feel the naming
was inconsistent anyway, I do not think it makes the
situation worse.
Why I think we have this discussion:
As all of the people on this list know the first version
of the Arduino eclipse plugin was actually only a plugin
based on the avr plugin that itself use CDT (which is an
IDE). As such I called it the "Arduino eclipse plugin".
If you had told me then that I would be discussin the
name of the plugin on a developers list purely related to
the plugin I would have laughed it away. :-)
Version 2 dropped the AVR plugin and works directly on
CDT. Wim added a "product" in version 2.X (don't recall
the exact number). I'm very thankful for Wim his product
contribution but I feel it is the root of the naming
confusion. As getting rid of the product is an absolute
NO WAY; lets have a constructive discussion on the naming.
I think the name should satisfy all of following criteria:
1) It should come up in google when people try to find a
alternative for the Arduino IDE
2) It should be compliant with "wikipedia". (I mean
product in eclipse has a very specific meaning and is not
what "normal people" think of when they hear product.
wikipedia is my reference here)
3) It should be self explaining.
Unless someone has a great idea for a name I think we
will end up with a concatenation of words like "Arduino
eclipse plugin".
So with all that in mind here are the things I agree to
disagree with Roberto :-)
IDE
When I google "IDE wikipedia" I immediately get the
description "integrated development environment".
I even disagree that the plugin is not an IDE.
1) ok
2) ok
3) ok
MCU
When I google "MCU wikipedia" I do not get a description
of what MCU stands for. Actually I do not see a link
between MCU and the "plugin". I also doubt that a Arduino
IDE user will make a link between "Eclipse MCU" and
"Compiling a Arduino sketch"
1) Nok
2) Nok
3) Nok.
extension
Wikipedia gives a good description of extension but it
goes from hair to ... . I feel extension is a inside
name. The user doesn't care the plugin extends CDT which
extends IDE which extents eclipse core. I don't think
people will use this to look for us nor does it self
explaining.
1) Nok
2) ok
3) Nok
platform
Feels the same as extension to me.
Here are the names I agree to agree with Roberto
Arduino score 1/1/1
IDE score 1/1/1
IOT score 0/1/0.5
eclipse score 0.2/1/1
Assembling words to a name:
Based on the above list of words the best name would be
"Arduino IDE" which is unfortunately already taken ;-).
Hoping for more input
Jantje
Op 1/04/2016 om 9:44 schreef Roberto Lo Giacco:
I see you have already gone with "Arduino eclipse IDE"....
On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Roberto Lo Giacco
<rlogiacco@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rlogiacco@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I disagree with naming it IDE for multiple reasons,
biggest being it will create confusion with the
Arduino IDE.
The product might be considered an IDE, but the
plugin is definitely not an IDE...
So may be just Arduino Eclipse or Eclipse Arduino is
a better fit, or may be we want to get out of the
Arduino branding (which is also covered by
copyright) and call it Eclipse MCU or Eclipse IoT :-D
I'm also having a debate with the Arduino people
with regards the library manager: I don't like the
way they build the libraries list and I'm concerned
about some mistakes I'm seeing... I'm tempted to
create my own list and compete with them on that
front :-P
Looking at how other plugins/platforms are named
they don't name the word *platform*, some of the
name *plugin*, but most of them either just give a
name accordingly to what it does or use the word
*extension*. I believe the latter is the best fit
for us if we wish to use a suffix, we are extending
Eclipse CDT to enable Arduino development.
So, my advices are (in order of my preference):
1.
Eclipse MCU
2. Arduino Eclipse
3. Arduino Eclipse Extension
4. Eclipse Arduino Extension
On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 10:11 PM, Jan Baeyens
<jan@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jan@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I have been struggling lately with names like
"Arduino eclipse plugin", "Arduino eclipse
product" ...
In my mind I came to this conclusion:
1) We are making a Arduino eclipse IDE.
2) The Arduino eclipse IDE comes in 2 flavours:
plugin and product.
So I think we should talk about the "Arduino
Eclipse IDE" instead of the "Arduino Eclipse
plugin".
The flavours their FQN is "Arduino Eclipse IDE
plugin" and "Arduino Eclipse IDE product"
What do you think?
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