[ddots-l] Re: A suggestion for one team talk session
- From: "Steve Spamer" <stevespamer68@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:55:18 -0000
DJX, you're right on the money...access is primarily a labour of love...and in
my case initially a labour of selfishness lol. The "charts" don't make for
good reading, but sometimes an encouraging word, a show of support or an act of
positive involvement is enough for me to continue.
The wider picture is that companies do take notice of the efforts some do...and
this builds good relations. Who knows, if the drip drip approach continues,
things will slowly get better and better, and these relationships with these
companies will only grow. The thing is, I'm sure they are quite aware of the
problems, division and hurdles we have within this community, hence maybe why
they would leave well alone.
One thing I know is that, it is very unclear on what to do from my point of
view. I don't really know what people want, I don't know what it is they will
really support or what they would be happy with. Reaper is a good example.
Lots of talk about Reaper being a good alternative to Sonar. Well, lets look
at those charts for Reaper...in the time I've made support for Reaper with all
the HSC sets, I don't mind telling the list, only 1 person has actually
purchased a set...and they do not subscribe to any list that I know of.
So, taking that on board, would continuing support for sets for Reaper be a
good move on my part?...well, absolutely not...what do I do? The choice for
users to use a number of screenreaders with Reaper is a great thing...and as
George mentioned in a previous post, this support would be a wonderful thing to
achieve across the board. Thing is, what happens is that it pigeon hols a
group and marginalises existing accessibility.
This muddies the waters even more, even though the result of having more choice
is positive, it isolates the possible avenues for access solutions. Meaning,
if all you want to do is use a platform like Reaper and go no further than the
boundries it has, that's great...if you want to go to a higher level, how do
you do it? Who is making this access available?...because there will be no one
addressing it, or if they are, like DJX it's just too much hassle to distribute
it.
Money is a massive factor, I totally accept that, but like with every walk of
life, you cut your cloth accordingly. At this current moment in time, it is
much more financially viable for me to do a private job for a professional,
then it is to make a set made available for all. Now that's really a sad state
of affairs for our situation, but this "professional" needs a solution and will
make money with that solution. They invest in their work with the purchase of
software they need to do a job. That investment demands an access solution and
commitment from the user to learn...at the end they have a solution, they know
how to use it and they can do their job/make money.
I have lost count of the number of times someone has wrote to me and said "can
you make this library accessible?", but I can't afford more than $20/$30 for
the solution. Now this library could be in the region of $800/$1000...now what
am I supposed to think? It's quite clear, no investment equals no commitment.
So, with that lack of investment, why do users demand total commitment from
someone else? Remember, these free options are actually being run on a system
that needs the commitment of a PC and internet access most of the time.
Jumping to a screenreader like Jaws is massive, I get that, but if I'm running
NVDA and Reaper, how can I equally jump to the demands of wanting access to
software that costs much more? I don't get that at all. Money talks and access
can be done, there just isn't enough money in this field, or enough money
channeled towards accessibility. Things are left for individuals to invest
there time, skills and hard work to make current solutions...and for the likes
of DD, Jim Snowbarger, Victor Goralov, etc I applaud them whole heartedly.
As Mike said I think, we're at a crossroads. So, we might find some go one way
and some go another, maybe that would be the best way, rather than to try and
make it one united approach...each way can make progression and give specific
choice! Best Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: ddots-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ddots-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of D!J!X!
Sent: 27 October 2014 23:59
To: ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ddots-l] Re: A suggestion for one team talk session
Lol, Mike I didn't say we are the only ones, but because we are such a small
community, and things when it comes to accessibility are so expensive, it just
amplifies the problem. Believe me, I understand the point you make about bad
economy and I know allot of people just can't afford as much as they would
like, but what I'm talking about is the balance (which is way off from what I
gather) we see between the few that are willing to somehow pay for a service,
and those that wouldn't think about it twice to have it for free, but then
complain when the access isn't supported or it runs dry. Hense my point about
the developers getting their fair share, so they could keep on working and
doing what they like to do as developers; which is what Steve was talking about
earlier today, the developers' side of the equation. As one who has recently
been developing great access solutions through HSC, I'm sure Steve can talk
about all of this and what the charts look like when it comes to how much work
he puts in, and how much he gets out. Hek, the VIPAudioAccess site itself is a
great example; a great effort put forth, but almost lost, because the community
just isn't responding. As a user and one who is definitely not rich, I
certainly can see that side of the story, but as one who has also done work
with software development and scripting and such, for the regular market, I
know how hard it is, and that's with a regular pay, so I can only imagine how
much harder it is for a developer not getting paid enough, or getting paid at
all for their work, for a small market such as accessibility.
I completely agree with you about not needing to have the latest and greatest
(see my other message), but it seems that's what allot of people want, access
to the latest stuff, or some new product that's out there because it's new.
It's like some of my customers, they suffer gear lust. They get a decked out
DAW or computer system this year, and next year, they read about some new
motherboard,spec or chip, and they come back to me asking me to build them a
new system based on that platform or chip etc. When in reality, they haven't
even reach half of the potential of the system they currently have. Now, I
could just go ahead and do the new build, more pay for me, but I usually try
and explain to the customer how the system they have has so much more to offer
that they're not even using, and how in most cases, they wouldn't even notice
or benefit from the (supposed) new improvements they're looking for. Sometimes
they listen, sometimes they don't, o well, the customer is always right lol.
Anyways, I think a solution like NK, assuming it works fully and not just small
access to presets, would be a great thing, because it would give access to
third party stuff, which IMO, is much better than having all the access in the
world to Cakewalk's latest and greatest stuff. Same goes for stuf like Steve's
sets, or anything that gives access to plugs that we can use, like the Choir
one you mentioned; have you checked if there's a demo? Have you tried reaching
out to some of the developers that are doing work for access, to see if they
can take a stab at it?
D!J!X!
-----Original Message-----
From: ddots-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ddots-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Mike Tyo
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 5:32 PM
To: ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ddots-l] Re: A suggestion for one team talk session
Wow-wow-wow-wow - hold the phone a minute! I don't think that the blind
community's the only entity out there who likes to get "free stuff" when it
comes to software. The Digital Goddess, Kim Komando, a radio talk show guru in
the states, quite often touts free stuff at her store or elsewhere. That ain't
just for us blind folks out here. I'm sure that a good many of us would pay for
decent quality software that does the job efficiently. We're at a crossroads
right now with technology changing so rapidly; the engine's running away from
the rest of the train because we're having a tough time staying hooked to it.
The biggest problem I see is money. A good many of us, including yours truly,
are riding out some rather tough economic times. We simply don't have the extra
funds to go out and completely revamp things, and a lot of the so called
compassionate state agencies aren't going to step in and help us without a lot
of strings attached. Then there's the developer's side of it; it's becoming
more than just a few fixes and retooling things to make it work. A lot of this
accessibility stuff's gonna have to be rebuilt from the ground up. These people
need to be paid for their hard work and expertise.
As for me, I resent being told that I need to scrap everything I have and start
dumping money that I don't have into the so called latest and greatest, when
what I have is working fine. From a business perspective, it doesn't make sense
right now to go after things that may not yield some kind of a payback within a
reasonable amount of time. Microsoft has been constantly finding ways to
separate people from their money, even if it's for stuff to supposedly help
protect your computer. It's become such a money pit over the years; and quite
frankly is getting to be insane. These assistive technology developers must be
pulling their hair out trying to keep up with all this; and yet we're somehow
supposed to go on as if there's nothing to see here. Don't get me wrong; I'm
not opposed to change. Too much at one time is never a good thing.
What I'd really like to know is just what sorts of things that Native Keys will
give us access to? For instance, how about some of these high-end plugs, like
some of the choirs that you can use Word Builder to make them sing lyrics? I
know that many of the interfaces are bitmapped, so how would that work? There's
a plug that I really wanted called ChoirsX, and it's not really extensive; I
think it's in the neighborhood of 50 bucks or so. It's a great effect for
creating multiple unison voices from one voice. I believe that you can generate
up to 32 voices with it. It's completely inaccessible, even through the
Inspector. So how about that one? If there are comparable plugs out there that
NK would work with, so be it! Even if we could just work through the Inspector,
that's great unto itself. For me, I get tired of always having to be on pins
and needles with all of this, because where does it end? Up to now, we've had
some pretty good stuff that works. Now there's the prospect of not having
decent stuff that works; and that you don't have to spend so much time messing
around with it to make it work. I like creating my own sounds and/or tweaking
or editing them to suit what I do. I don't want to have to constantly go
through a dog and pony show to make it happen.
I stand by Dancing Dot's decision not to move ahead with rebuilding CakeTalking
for Sonar X3 right now. Believe me, I have absolutely nothing to gain by that
statement. They must know a little more than we do about what it's going to
take to make that happen. I'm sure that there would have to be a massive
undertaking to do it; and that takes a lot of resources. I'm not being a party
poop on this stuff either; I believe that people should be able to obtain the
tools they need for their situation within reason. I cringe to think what's
going to end up happening when we get to Windows 10.
Then there's the notion out there that some people want to be able to have
their recording studio on their phone, tablet, or whatever mobile device.
That ought to be rather interesting doing complex editing quickly and
efficiently with a touch-screen.
Sorry for the rant; but I thought I'd put my two cents in for what it's worth.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ddots-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 15:15
Subject: [ddots-l] Re: A suggestion for one team talk session
Is that fair? I mean to the developer. Let's say there are 100 CT users who
all want NK. Who pays Victor for those 100 licenses for his software?
DancingDots? Should he just give them away? If he were to charge 100 dollars
for NK, that would be 10,000 dollars he'd be losing out on, and countless
hours of work gone unpaid for.
I guess you could work out a discount price (if he agrees), or let each
person buy the plug individually. For example, do you see Steve charging
JSonar users for his sets and giving it away for free to CT users because
they've paid for CT? No, you want the product, you pay the developer for it,
regardless of what access technology they are using. As someone who's worked
in the software development field, I can tell you that it's only fair to pay
a developer for the many hours that go into coding a piece of software.
IMO, that's one of the reason nothing will ever get done in this community
when it comes to accessibility and access, everybody just wants the free
stuff, nobody wants to pay; it's why those of us who can develop access to
our own stuff privately, and don't even bother trying to release it to the
mainstream, because it would be a waste of time and just added work to write
docs, give support etc. Unfortunately this kind of work takes allot of time
to do, so we are then torn between making money elsewhere to sustain
ourselves and our families, or developing stuff to help the community but go
without income.
We are a small community as it is, and those in the community who are
willing to pay are even a smaller group, so that's gonna be an everlasting
issue lol.
Regards, D!J!X!
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