Many thanks Joe, much appreciated, please thank Doug profusely!
What I'm seeing in the late photo that I'd thought was a name then will
possibly turn out to be something more like "CAFE PARLOR" (I'm guessing -
but there just may have been a good reason behind Gib having described it as
a "cafe-parlor" car) at the central, low location of the siding (i.e. not a
name) with car number "652x" likely the marking at the location above the
rear truck.
Does anybody know of any evidence of markings (drawings or photos) from the
period for what M.P. 14 1922 calls cafe-observation-parlor 6521 series? (the
last thing an anally obsessive modeler would want is to get the markings
wrong.)
cheers, Greg
_____
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 8:36 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Passenger cars
Ladies, gentlemen and foamers:
I received the following email - attached below - from my friend
Doug Phillips who is very knowledgeable about CPR passenger
car equipment. Copied with his permission.
I purposely did not trim all the previous correspondence from
this post as I feel that this series of posts warranted being kept
together for the good historical overview I think it is.
JDS
Hello Joe
A friend of mine sent me this copy of discussion on the named cars used on
the KVR. Im not a member of that discussion group, but thought you would be
interested some additional facts and clarification. Perhaps you could share
them with the group.
In 1906 CP had eight cars nos. 51-58 built as Café-coach cars for various
trains not equipped with full dining cars. As traffic increased these
Café-coaches were then replace by full diners.
These Café-coach cars had a full vestibule at one end and one half vestibule
at the kitchen end. They came with a kitchen and pantry, a dining area to
sit 18 and a first class coach section sitting for 32.
All eight were assigned to Western Lines.
In 1910 four of the cars, 55-58 surplus as café-coach cars were converted to
full Parlor cars and assigned new service and given new names.
The following year 1912 cars 51-54 were renumbered 78-81 in a general number
within the system.
Another attempt was made with a new numbering system in 1917, but was
discontinued part-way through the numbering of the cars
Car 78 was numbered 5350 and 81 was numbered 5353, the other two did not
receive numbers in this series.
Then with the new through service Vancouver-Nelson introduced in 1917, the
Café-coach cars would be fitted out were given names for that service.
5350 ex 78 was named SIMILKAMEEN (i) on 01/1918 then renamed KETTLE
04/1918.
79 was named OPINAKA 08/1916 (note the date is 1916 two years before the
other three are named and may not have been used at first on the KVR).
80 was named COQUIHALLA August 1918.
5353 ex 81 was named SIMILKAMEEN (ii) on 05/1918.
Seems only three Café-coach cars were used initially for the
Vancouver-Nelson service. The number of cars required would be determined if
the service was seven days a week or part days of a week. I have no record
on where OPINAKA worked as it is not a familiar name on the KVR route, but
it did not stray very far, and may have been there anyway.
Then the following year the Café-coach cars were rebuilt at Ogden shops as
Café-Observation-Parlor cars c/w open end platforms. All the cars lost their
names and were given numbers 6521-6522, including the car OPINAKA now
numbered. The conversions were done between February and May 1919. All four
cars were converted for this service.
So the photos of the open-end observation cars on the KVR are of numbered
cars not named cars. All four of these cars were retired December 1931 and
dismantled at Vancouver.
As for the TRENT, built new in 1912, it worked out of Toronto and never was
on the KVR. Gib Kennedy modeled the car because he liked it and he modeled a
large number of other cars not used on the KVR as well, but never did any
more articles other than on freight cars. By the way I own Gibs car TRENT
that he modeled for the article in MR and have had it for a number of years.
Incidentally the car PENTICTION was mentioned. It was the private car
assigned to the KVR at Penticton and was rebuilt from the sleeping car QU
APPELLE in 1917. It was renumbered official car 20 in 1926
Trust this helps with some on the riddles that were passed on.
Cheers
Doug Phillips
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 5:03 AM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Passenger cars
Incidentally, the HO Scale model of CPR's "TRENT" still exists and is safe
here in Calgary.
Dave Audley
On Monday, August 22, 2016 2:22 AM, "kvrailway@xxxxxxx [cpsig]"
<cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Greg: That is useful information about the car PENTICTON. I have
references to the
car in my archival material, particularly in Andrew McCullochs diaries.
However, until
now, I wasnt sure whether or not it was an official car or an observation
car.
To reiterate what I said before, you didnt see Gibs five car consist,
because the
5th car didnt come west of Midway until long after KVR days. Gib modelled
the
train as he remembered it. His grandfather was an early day merchant at
Carmi, BC
so when he was small, he had quite a few rides between Carmi and Trail, BC,
where he
grew up. As with anybody who resided east of Midway, BC, along the Columbia
&
Western, Gib knew the train in its regular five-car configuration.
JDS
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 10:45 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Passenger cars
1959 Model Railroader article by Gib is superb, what first got me going was
that, facing the article's opening page, at page 27, there's a reproduction
of 1916 classic photo of "3269" Consolidation "pausing" (for photo) with
four car consist on West Fork Canyon Creek trestle. Even this dullard had to
admit that there was definitely one car less in that photo than was
described in Gib's article. But I digress.
To make a short story long:
a) Form M.P. 14 1922 shows an entry at page 66 within CANADIAN PACIFIC
PASSENGER EQUIPMENT under CAFE - OBSERVATION - PARLOR
(appearing also M.P. 14 1924 at page 76 and M.P. 14 1927 at page 78)
Engineering Order: 1558,1564;
Year built 1906, Reb'lt 1917;
Series: 6521 to 6524;
Length Over Sills: 72'-0";
Seating Capacity: Main Rm. or D'ng Rm 18
Seating Capacity: Smok'g R or Parlor 16;
Wheels: 12;
No. of Cars: 4.
I find the rebuilt 1917 to possibly correlate to Penticton Herald
description provided by Joe Smuin of "new" observation cars (furthermore PH
& CPR state "four") so I'm inclined to believe this is the series which saw
KVR service.
b) In the caption beneath a photo (a late mixed bag four car consist) on
Page 165 of "The Kettle Valley and its Railways", Hal Riegger states:
"In 1931 train #11 with engine #588 is crossing Canyon Creek trestle at Mile
87.9 on the Carmi Subdivision. Should the reader be a modeler or concerned
about specific data the following information provided by Gib Kennedy will
be helpful: CPR engine #588 is a class D9c, a 4-6-0 ten-wheeler built by
Alco; Baggage and Express 4300 series, both among the first steel cars built
by CPR in 1914; a wooden sleeper of 1906 vintage sheathed in the 1920's and
a wooden cafe-parlor in the 6521 series. ... (Photo: R.N. Atkinson Museum &
Archives)
(You might be able to discern the name on the cafe-observation-parlor in the
original negative, you can only tell from the Riegger reproduction that
there is a name on this car, guessing maybe 10+ letters.)
c) At page 47 of "Steam On The Kettle Valley - A Railway Heritage
Remembered", Robert D. Turner, copyright 1995, at upper right:
3200s and the Passenger Trains - "Before 1931, the passenger train was
always four cars: a baggage and express: a day coach, either a 1200 or 1500
series; some of the 1500s had electric lights; and the 12-1 sleeper, with
twelve sections and one drawing room; and the buffet-parlour-observation
with the platform at the end. That car was rebuilt from an old coach-buffet
years ago in Montreal. There were four of them assigned to the Kettle
Valley, Opinaka, Kettle, Similkameen, and Coquihalla. Later they were given
numbers 6521-6524. I used to watch those trains come and go. ... W. Gibson
Kennedy
d) the photo of b) above is reproduced at page 84 of Turner's book with the
caption "The Kootenay Express is dwarfed by the steel bridge over the West
Fork of Canyon Creek in Myra Canyon. Taken soon after the replacement of the
wooden trestle with a steel structure in 1932, the photo shows a typical
four-car train ... - PENTICTON MUSEUM
I'd say the verdict is in wrt 6521 series being the cafe-observation-parlor
seeing KVR service from maybe 1917 to at least 1932.
Seems like an attempt to pin down one name from photographic evidence might
require a trip to the Penticton Museum, if the original negative has ended
up there, to assess its resolution.
Alternately an earlier M.P. 14 might contain a list of names associated with
engineering order. (I don't have earlier than copy of 1922)
cheers, Greg
(I found a private car named Penticton in M.P. 14 1922 at page 71: E.O. P.S.
2; Year Built: 1883 Rebuilt 1917; Series (Name or Number): Penticton; Length
over Sills: 58' 0"; Wheels: 12; Number of Cars: 1)
_____
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 10:17 AM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Passenger cars
The 1915-1930 era KVR passenger trains are well-documented in photos. The
standard train consist
was four cars: baggage, coach, sleeper and Cafe-Parlor Observation. A
standard CPR mail car was added
to the consist at Midway, BC. That mail car worked between Midway and
Nelson, BC. It wasnt until 1944
that the mail car ran all the way from Nelson to Vancouver, BC. However,
even then, postal clerks did not
man the car west of Midway. The mail car remained in the consist west of
Midway after 1944 simply to
eliminate the time spent picking it up and setting it off at Midway.
I should note that the KV passenger trains did not sport box cars between
1916 and sometime around the
end of World War Two when the Passenger Merchandise Service was instituted.
Gib Kennedy had a huge photo collection. As he was a CP Telecommunications
employee, he also had
a certain access to CPR material which the average modeller did not. I saw
some of Gibs stuff at his home
and obtained copies of some of it from him. A few years ago, when Gibs
photo collection landed at the
Penticton Museum, I was hired to go through it to tell the Museum exactly
what they were looking at.
Right till the end of his life, Gib had a staggering memory for equipment
details. Why he mentioned the
FRASER, MOIRA and TRENT, I dont know. However, like everybody else, he
flew with whatever information
he could get his hands on. At the time, I knew him, during the period
approximately 1982-1996 ... I was
amassing KVR photos and researching the KVR in area newspaper files. I
managed to find quite a few things
that were news to Gib too. However, his drawings in the 1959 Model
Railroader Magazine, I would still
consider to be unparalleled in their detail and accuracy where early-period
KVR passenger equipment is concerned.
JDS
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 8:24 AM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Passenger cars
Thanks Joe,
Early 20s was roughly the four car consist (plus incidental boxcars) behind
Consolidation, later 20s/early 30s closer to Gib's five car consist (with
big question around identity of cafe parlor Observation cars).
btw I think what few photos exist point to a baggage/mail car in early four
car consists.
I think there simply may have been more info available to Gib wrt Trent so
he used that for his model, IIRC (and sometimes I don't so beware) I had
looked at photos of Trent and compared against window configuration of early
KVR photos and wasn't able to match, yes I know there's different window
configuration on each side.)
(My grandmother honeymooned on KVR in early 20's - so I have a special
interest but no railroad experience, Joe seems to be the most credible
source)
cheers, Greg
_____
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 11:15 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Passenger cars
The prototype Kettle Valley set was remarked upon in the Penticton Herald
issue of 2nd August 1917. Amongst other things, the article states:
Passenger train now operated between Nelson and Vancouver via the KV route
is one of the most modernly (sic) appointed trains operated being
electrically lit and consisting as it does of
baggage car, first class coach, standard sleeper and lately a new
observation car constructed especially for this service. ... and there are
four sets of equipment in the service.
I do not recall seeing any evidence of any of the Observation, Cafe Parlor
Observation or Cafe Coaches (designation depending on which authority you
refer to) bearing the names TRENT, MOIRA or FRASER while on KVR territory.
According to A CENTURY OF DE LUXE RAILWAY CARS IN CANADA, (pgs 92 and 101),
the cars which actually appeared in KVR service were named SIMILKAMEEN,
OPINAKA (which makes NO sense), COQUIHALLA and KETTLE. Off the top of my
head, SIMILKAMEEN is the only name I recall seeing in contemporary reports.
However, other records in my possession indicate that one of the wooden
construction Cafe Parlor Observation cars carried the name PENTICTON. At
least, Im assuming that the Cafe Parlor Observation car is what was being
referred to.
It appears that in late 1918 and early 1919, the four Cafe Parlor
Observation cars were renamed from 6521-6524.
It would take more time than I have tonight to try to confirm those numbers,
but they ring a bell. (Trouble is ... I hear a lot of little bells these
days. )
To the best of my knowledge, most of what we consider to be the Kettle
Valley passenger equipment did not last on KVR territory for very long
after the KVR was absorbed into the BC District of the CPR on 1st January
1931. The wooden cars were replaced by steel equipment very shortly after
the CPR merged the KVR. I understand that the wooden Cafe Parlor Observation
Cars lasted for some little time after the rest of the wooden equipment
disappeared perhaps as long as a year.
In short, I would object to TRENT, MOIRA or FRASER appearing as KVR
equipment. While the late Gib Kennedy (whom I knew personally in his later
years) refers to these three cars in his 1959 Model Railroader article, I
have seen no credible evidence of their appearance on KV territory. Gib was
VERY knowledgeable, but available evidence doesnt support him at this
moment. There is hard evidence of at least the SIMILKAMEEN, which
corresponds to the information in the CENTURY book.
Joe Smuin
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 5:26 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Passenger cars
Is there prototype information available about these cars? What number
series; where built; where ran, etc?
The Kettle Valley set:
60 mail car, number series 3700, many lasted into the 1950s
60 baggage express car, number series 4000, many lasted into the 1950s
64-6 coach with smoking room, number series 1200 after 1911, some lasted
until the late 1940s.
72 standard wood sleeper from the R series, some cars in this series were
rebuilt as observation sleepers of the FORT series in 1922. The rest were
renamed to T series wood sleeper in 1929. Cars lasted until the early 1930s.
The observation cars are either TRENT, MOIRA or FRASER. These cars were
respectively numbered 6518, 6519 and 6520 in 1919. The first 2 lasted until
1956 and 1957 and FRASER was wrecked and scrapped in 1942.
Jeff
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