Greg: That is useful information about the car PENTICTON. I have references
to the
car in my archival material, particularly in Andrew McCulloch’s diaries.
However, until
now, I wasn’t sure whether or not it was an official car or an observation car.
To reiterate what I said before, you didn’t see Gib’s five car consist, because
the
5th car didn’t come west of Midway until long after KVR days. Gib modelled the
train as he remembered it. His grandfather was an early day merchant at Carmi,
BC
so when he was small, he had quite a few rides between Carmi and Trail, BC,
where he
grew up. As with anybody who resided east of Midway, BC, along the Columbia &
Western, Gib knew the train in its regular five-car configuration.
JDS
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 10:45 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Passenger cars
1959 Model Railroader article by Gib is superb, what first got me going was
that, facing the article's opening page, at page 27, there's a reproduction of
1916 classic photo of "3269" Consolidation "pausing" (for photo) with four car
consist on West Fork Canyon Creek trestle. Even this dullard had to admit that
there was definitely one car less in that photo than was described in Gib's
article. But I digress.
To make a short story long:
a) Form M.P. 14 1922 shows an entry at page 66 within CANADIAN PACIFIC
PASSENGER EQUIPMENT under CAFE - OBSERVATION - PARLOR
(appearing also M.P. 14 1924 at page 76 and M.P. 14 1927 at page 78)
Engineering Order: 1558,1564;
Year built 1906, Reb'lt 1917;
Series: 6521 to 6524;
Length Over Sills: 72'-0";
Seating Capacity: Main Rm. or D'ng Rm 18
Seating Capacity: Smok'g R or Parlor 16;
Wheels: 12;
No. of Cars: 4.
I find the rebuilt 1917 to possibly correlate to Penticton Herald description
provided by Joe Smuin of "new" observation cars (furthermore PH & CPR state
"four") so I'm inclined to believe this is the series which saw KVR service.
b) In the caption beneath a photo (a late mixed bag four car consist) on Page
165 of "The Kettle Valley and its Railways", Hal Riegger states:
"In 1931 train #11 with engine #588 is crossing Canyon Creek trestle at Mile
87.9 on the Carmi Subdivision. Should the reader be a modeler or concerned
about specific data the following information provided by Gib Kennedy will be
helpful: CPR engine #588 is a class D9c, a 4-6-0 ten-wheeler built by Alco;
Baggage and Express 4300 series, both among the first steel cars built by CPR
in 1914; a wooden sleeper of 1906 vintage sheathed in the 1920's and a wooden
cafe-parlor in the 6521 series. ... (Photo: R.N. Atkinson Museum & Archives)
(You might be able to discern the name on the cafe-observation-parlor in the
original negative, you can only tell from the Riegger reproduction that there
is a name on this car, guessing maybe 10+ letters.)
c) At page 47 of "Steam On The Kettle Valley - A Railway Heritage Remembered",
Robert D. Turner, copyright 1995, at upper right:
3200s and the Passenger Trains - "Before 1931, the passenger train was always
four cars: a baggage and express: a day coach, either a 1200 or 1500 series;
some of the 1500s had electric lights; and the 12-1 sleeper, with twelve
sections and one drawing room; and the buffet-parlour-observation with the
platform at the end. That car was rebuilt from an old coach-buffet years ago in
Montreal. There were four of them assigned to the Kettle Valley, Opinaka,
Kettle, Similkameen, and Coquihalla. Later they were given numbers 6521-6524. I
used to watch those trains come and go. ... W. Gibson Kennedy
d) the photo of b) above is reproduced at page 84 of Turner's book with the
caption "The Kootenay Express is dwarfed by the steel bridge over the West Fork
of Canyon Creek in Myra Canyon. Taken soon after the replacement of the wooden
trestle with a steel structure in 1932, the photo shows a typical four-car
train ... - PENTICTON MUSEUM
I'd say the verdict is in wrt 6521 series being the cafe-observation-parlor
seeing KVR service from maybe 1917 to at least 1932.
Seems like an attempt to pin down one name from photographic evidence might
require a trip to the Penticton Museum, if the original negative has ended up
there, to assess its resolution.
Alternately an earlier M.P. 14 might contain a list of names associated with
engineering order. (I don't have earlier than copy of 1922)
cheers, Greg
(I found a private car named Penticton in M.P. 14 1922 at page 71: E.O. P.S. 2;
Year Built: 1883 Rebuilt 1917; Series (Name or Number): Penticton; Length over
Sills: 58' 0"; Wheels: 12; Number of Cars: 1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 10:17 AM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Passenger cars
The 1915-1930 era KVR passenger trains are well-documented in photos. The
standard train consist
was four cars: baggage, coach, sleeper and Cafe-Parlor Observation. A
standard CPR mail car was added
to the consist at Midway, BC. That mail car worked between Midway and Nelson,
BC. It wasn’t until 1944
that the mail car ran all the way from Nelson to Vancouver, BC. However, even
then, postal clerks did not
man the car west of Midway. The mail car remained in the consist west of
Midway after 1944 simply to
eliminate the time spent picking it up and setting it off at Midway.
I should note that the KV passenger trains did not sport box cars between 1916
and sometime around the
end of World War Two when the Passenger Merchandise Service was instituted.
Gib Kennedy had a huge photo collection. As he was a CP Telecommunications
employee, he also had
a certain access to CPR material which the average modeller did not. I saw
some of Gib’s stuff at his home
and obtained copies of some of it from him. A few years ago, when Gib’s photo
collection landed at the
Penticton Museum, I was hired to go through it to tell the Museum exactly what
they were looking at.
Right till the end of his life, Gib had a staggering memory for equipment
details. Why he mentioned the
FRASER, MOIRA and TRENT, I don’t know. However, like everybody else, he flew
with whatever information
he could get his hands on. At the time, I knew him, during the period
approximately 1982-1996 ... I was
amassing KVR photos and researching the KVR in area newspaper files. I managed
to find quite a few things
that were news to Gib too. However, his drawings in the 1959 Model Railroader
Magazine, I would still
consider to be unparalleled in their detail and accuracy where early-period KVR
passenger equipment is concerned.
JDS
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 8:24 AM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Passenger cars
Thanks Joe,
Early 20s was roughly the four car consist (plus incidental boxcars) behind
Consolidation, later 20s/early 30s closer to Gib's five car consist (with big
question around identity of cafe parlor Observation cars).
btw I think what few photos exist point to a baggage/mail car in early four car
consists.
I think there simply may have been more info available to Gib wrt Trent so he
used that for his model, IIRC (and sometimes I don't so beware) I had looked at
photos of Trent and compared against window configuration of early KVR photos
and wasn't able to match, yes I know there's different window configuration on
each side.)
(My grandmother honeymooned on KVR in early 20's - so I have a special interest
but no railroad experience, Joe seems to be the most credible source)
cheers, Greg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 11:15 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Passenger cars
The prototype ‘Kettle Valley set’ was remarked upon in the Penticton Herald
issue of 2nd August 1917. Amongst other things, the article states: ‘Passenger
train now operated between Nelson and Vancouver via the KV route is one of the
most modernly (sic) appointed trains operated being electrically lit and
consisting as it does of
baggage car, first class coach, standard sleeper and lately a new observation
car constructed especially for this service. ... and there are four sets of
equipment in the service.’
I do not recall seeing any evidence of any of the Observation, Cafe Parlor
Observation or Cafe Coaches (designation depending on which authority you refer
to) bearing the names TRENT, MOIRA or FRASER while on KVR territory.
According to A CENTURY OF DE LUXE RAILWAY CARS IN CANADA, (pgs 92 and 101), the
cars which actually appeared in KVR service were named SIMILKAMEEN, OPINAKA
(which makes NO sense), COQUIHALLA and KETTLE. Off the top of my head,
SIMILKAMEEN is the only name I recall seeing in contemporary reports. However,
other records in my possession indicate that one of the wooden construction
Cafe Parlor Observation cars carried the name PENTICTON. At least, I’m assuming
that the Cafe Parlor Observation car is what was being referred to.
It appears that in late 1918 and early 1919, the four Cafe Parlor Observation
cars were renamed from 6521-6524.
It would take more time than I have tonight to try to confirm those numbers,
but they ring a bell. (Trouble is ... I hear a lot of little bells these days. )
To the best of my knowledge, most of what we consider to be the ‘Kettle Valley’
passenger equipment did not last on KVR territory for very long after the KVR
was absorbed into the BC District of the CPR on 1st January 1931. The wooden
cars were replaced by steel equipment very shortly after the CPR merged the
KVR. I understand that the wooden Cafe Parlor Observation Cars lasted for some
little time after the rest of the wooden equipment disappeared – perhaps as
long as a year.
In short, I would object to TRENT, MOIRA or FRASER appearing as KVR equipment.
While the late Gib Kennedy (whom I knew personally in his later years) refers
to these three cars in his 1959 Model Railroader article, I have seen no
credible evidence of their appearance on KV territory. Gib was VERY
knowledgeable, but available evidence doesn’t support him at this moment. There
is hard evidence of at least the SIMILKAMEEN, which corresponds to the
information in the CENTURY book.
Joe Smuin
From: mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 5:26 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Passenger cars
Is there prototype information available about these cars? What number series;
where built; where ran, etc?
The Kettle Valley set:
60’ mail car, number series 3700, many lasted into the 1950s
60’ baggage express car, number series 4000, many lasted into the 1950s
64’-6” coach with smoking room, number series 1200 after 1911, some lasted
until the late 1940s.
72’ standard wood sleeper from the R series, some cars in this series were
rebuilt as observation sleepers of the FORT series in 1922. The rest were
renamed to T series wood sleeper in 1929. Cars lasted until the early 1930s.
The observation cars are either TRENT, MOIRA or FRASER. These cars were
respectively numbered 6518, 6519 and 6520 in 1919. The first 2 lasted until
1956 and 1957 and FRASER was wrecked and scrapped in 1942.
Jeff
