RE: [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2100
- From: "jonine lee" <satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 18:23:03 +1000
Far more questions than answers indeed! Thanks to all for the conversation,
A thought from the past on the consciousness thread
All things that have consciousness depend upon breath
Chuang Tsze, Taoist
sage
on Life driving itself forward thanks Gary for your comments
As Mother of a now 21yo conceived in a petri dish (IVF)
and another child (25)born via surrogacy, when I have attempted a
philosophical discussion
they have not been interested really and only said that if this is how I got
life I am just glad I did!
My work also often involves couples including gay couples and single women
wanting children
using ivf and donor sperm and I continually wonder at how this will be an
increasingly challenging/interesting dynamic over the next generations
as this area of exploration shows no signs of slowing down.
And really how possible is it to stop what must be the ultimate exploration
that of being able to create life??
If I had understood the principles of constellation work back then would I
have accepted my seeming
fate of being childless? or is my fate to work with the challenge of
creating life in this way?
I too have far more questions than answers...
Grateful at the end of a beautiful spring day for the many and varied
perspectives
Jonine
.ahh to stand in the quiet solitude tasting sweet breezes & knowing that
every day is as it should be.....
Jonine Lee Gabay
Breathwork, Counselling/Coaching, Family Constellations,
Core Connection Health & Wellbeing
Level 1/762 Pacific Highway,
Sydney NSW 2072
M 0402067024
E satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
W www.coreconnectiontrainings.com
_____
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of gary stuart
Sent: Tuesday, 4 September 2012 10:50 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2100
Great thread....
Thanks for the links Dan and all who contribute,
One thing I'd like to add is about LIFE or LIFEFORCE itself. It doesn't
care. It seeks fulfillment and replication and movement forward. It's
amoral, illogical and heart full and heartless all at the same time. Humans
seem to attach much meaning onto it but the energy of the force itself just
moves forward at all cost. It also finds a way to survive to protect it's
genetic material but will adjust to the environment regardless.
Here's a great quote I read by Stanley Kubrick " The most terrifying fact
about the universe is NOT that it is hostile, but that it is INDIFFERENT."
I want to be clear I'm not talking about Family systems but ALL systems
contributing to life synergistically. This is not to invalidate any of the
work we do. Being multidimensional, psychospiritual being we have allot on
our Conscious or unconscious plate. The raw force LIFE that animates us has
its own designs and Rules... Bert seems to see it and in a word it is to
"Gain strength to survive and move forward" we seem to hold onto survival
lessons for eternity and then some,
Thanks for this great thread.... you all should know I have a BIG heart and
spirit but I'm speaking about the Ghost in the Machine (thanks Sting)...
Spirit.
Namaste to us all seeking wisdom,
Sincerely Gary Stuart
www.chifield.com
and Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40Chifield.com> for private comments.
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Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 9:45 AM
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Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2100
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2 New Messages
Digest #2100
1a
Re: the future of reproduction...and constellations? by "Irene Davey"
2
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and s by "Dan
Booth Cohen, PhD" bunnywhoo
Messages
1a
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/8807;_ylc=X3oDMTJxM
TVnMGdvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkA
zg4MDcEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTM0NjY5MDcyMQ--> Re: the future of
reproduction...and constellations?
Sun Sep 2, 2012 3:55 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
<mailto:toast_is_great@xxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:toast_is_great%40hotmail.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20the%20future%20of%20repro
duction%2E%2E%2Eand%20constellations%3F> "Irene Davey"
Im also a grandmother and mother (and a fallen Catholic) but really I dont
see anything too amiss with this concept. There are advantages and
disadvantages as there are with any new thought/product/procedure. I believe
the soul would choose or not choose to integrate with that particular body ,
maybe the soul was a scientist or an aborted fetus in their previous life?
Now having stated those quick thoughts I will paste a comment from that
article that really disturbs me:
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
This is such a throwaway line that weakens all ethical and moral parameters
enabling science and unscrupulous others such as governments to produce an
army of mindless worker, fighters, breeding machines...the list goes on.
That is what scares me!
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From: systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com>
<mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Thank you, Barbara for the sanity check--I think the Catholic Church has
rejected all these types of reproductive technologies on the premise that
children have the right to be created in the natural embrace of their
parents.
A wise thought, from an imperfect institution maybe?
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical Interpreter
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>
<mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>
3036640852
Cell 7208389509
On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Barbara Morgan <theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com>
<mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com> > wrote:
What happens to the human soul when we try to control nature in this way
or
rather what has already happened to the souls of those doing this research
and those who would be willing to use it? Anything rather than deal with
the pain of what is.
Horrifying and I'm glad I won't be alive to witness it. Where's the
thought
for the child in all this?
Yes, an emotional response. As a mother and grandmother, it can't be
anything else for me.
Barbara
On 18 August 2012 20:14, Andrew Watson <andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx
<
mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com> > wrote:
**
This is a really interesting article on the future of reproduction:
apparently, it will be possible to conceive, gestate, and give birth all
outside a human being. It might even be possible to genetically alter a
woman's cells to create sperm with her DNA -- so she could theoretically
(and literally) be mother and "father" to her child. The opposite could
be
possible with men....and apparently, it might even be possible to have
men
producing milk.
I guess, in the final analysis, life will have life, however that life
comes into being......
Here's the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-aarathi-
prasad
Hopefully this will spark yet another enriching discussion on this forum.
Enjoy!
Andy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner
Editor of
The Knowing Field
International Constellations Journal
www.theknowingfield.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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2
<
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WpqcXFoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkA
zg4MDgEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTM0NjY5MDcyMQ--> "I mean, we are
machines, after all. We have all these ethical and s
Mon Sep 3, 2012 9:15 am (PDT) . Posted by:
<
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mailto:danboothcohen%40gmail.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%22I%20mean%2C%20we%20are%20
machines%2C%20after%20all%2E%20We%20have%20all%20these%20ethical%20and%20s>
"Dan Booth Cohen, PhD" bunnywhoo
Dear Irene and All -
I feel you have touched on an essential aspect to human consciousness that
we have largely overlooked or excluded as Constellation facilitators.
On the opening page of Loves Hidden Symmetry, Bert Hellinger describes
three dimensions of conscience: personal, systemic, and Conscience of the
Greater Whole. Since then, he has refined these terms and now refers to the
three dimensions as personal, soul and spirit. Others, following in his
footsteps, have found different language. For example, Thomas Bryson has
offered this:
Humans all have three aspects - the individual, the systemic and what is
beyond, similar to the metaphor of a drop of water, the wave and the ocean.
The drop and the wave have no independent existence.
I refrain from explaining Constellations in terms of conscience for
practical reasons. Sometimes, I call these three dimensions of
consciousness: personal, the inherited mind of ancestors, and consciousness
beyond the human scale of time. Here is a link to a YouTube video where I
described them in slightly different terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM&feature=plcp> &feature=plcp>
&feature=plcp>
&feature=plcp.
I recently led a training exercise on these concepts at a training course in
São Paulo, Brazil, where it became clear that there is another dimension
that we as Constellators omit, exclude or deny.
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension of
ancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe. The second dimension whether
we call it systemic conscience, systemic or the inherited mind of the
ancestors cannot be precisely observed, measured or replicated. It can be
described phenomenologically, but not quantified objectively. In its place,
is a non-human consciousness. Irene refers to it accurately, This weakens
all ethical and moral parameters enabling science and unscrupulous others
such as governments to produce an army of mindless worker, fighters,
breeding machines...the list goes on. That is what scares me!
When Bert Hellinger lived with the Zulus of South Africa, he was among the
oldest continuous human culture in world history. See:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/.
<
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/>
<
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/> The Zulus came to Southern
Africa at the origin of the species. They never moved or migrated. They
never co-mingled or were invaded until the Dutch and English settlers
arrived. For them, the Ancestors are the central regulator of life. In
introducing the concepts of Orders of Love, exclusion of an ancestor, and
systemic entanglement, Hellinger is reintroducing a way of experiencing
human existence that is far removed from the existentialism of his
philosophical mentor Martin Heidegger.
Working from Hellingers three dimensions or our own variations, we tend to
not include or overlook the consciousness of the machine. However, for the
vast majority of people in our communities it is their central regulator of
life, either as religious beliefs or technological devices.
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/stephen-shaheen-headlight
The question of who is the mother of a child conceived in a dish and brought
to gestation in a machine brings this omission into sharp focus. Irene
suggests the soul of the child will choose to integrate into the body.
Barbara is grateful she wont be alive to witness it.
I am just beginning to explore this. The next time I do a group exercise
about the 3 dimensions of consciousness, I will include representatives for
the consciousness of machines.
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
President
Systemic Constellations Conferences and Education
www.USConstellations.com
www.HiddenSolution.com
781-718-7158
-----Original Message-----
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<
mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Irene Davey
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 6:56 PM
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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<
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Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Im also a grandmother and mother (and a fallen Catholic) but really I dont
see anything too amiss with this concept. There are advantages and
disadvantages as there are with any new thought/product/procedure. I believe
the soul would choose or not choose to integrate with that particular body ,
maybe the soul was a scientist or an aborted fetus in their previous life?
Now having stated those quick thoughts I will paste a comment from that
article that really disturbs me:
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
This is such a throwaway line that weakens all ethical and moral parameters
enabling science and unscrupulous others such as governments to produce an
army of mindless worker, fighters, breeding machines...the list goes on.
That is what scares me!
To: <
mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<
mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> >
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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From: <
mailto:systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx
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mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com> > systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx
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mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:systemic.solutions%40gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Thank you, Barbara for the sanity check--I think the Catholic Church has
rejected all these types of reproductive technologies on the premise that
children have the right to be created in the natural embrace of their
parents.
A wise thought, from an imperfect institution maybe?
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical Interpreter
<
mailto:Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<
mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>
<
mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com> >
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<
mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>
<
mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>
3036640852
Cell 7208389509
On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Barbara Morgan <
<
mailto:theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx ;<
mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com> >
theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx <
mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:theknowingfield%40gmail.com> > wrote:
What happens to the human soul when we try to control nature in this
way or rather what has already happened to the souls of those doing
this research and those who would be willing to use it? Anything
rather than deal with the pain of what is.
Horrifying and I'm glad I won't be alive to witness it. Where's the
thought for the child in all this?
Yes, an emotional response. As a mother and grandmother, it can't be
anything else for me.
Barbara
On 18 August 2012 20:14, Andrew Watson <
<
mailto:andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx ;<
mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com> >
andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx <
mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com>
<
mailto:andrew.e.watson%40gmail.com> > wrote:
**
This is a really interesting article on the future of reproduction:
apparently, it will be possible to conceive, gestate, and give birth
all outside a human being. It might even be possible to genetically
alter a woman's cells to create sperm with her DNA -- so she could
theoretically (and literally) be mother and "father" to her child.
The opposite could be possible with men....and apparently, it might
even be possible to have men producing milk.
I guess, in the final analysis, life will have life, however that
life comes into being......
Here's the link:
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a
arathi-prasad
Hopefully this will spark yet another enriching discussion on this forum.
Enjoy!
Andy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner Editor of The
Knowing Field International Constellations Journal
<http://www.theknowingfield.com> www.theknowingfield.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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