To be honest, it sounds like to me that Miriam is calling for none of us
to express an opinion because it might hurt someone's feelings.
On 8/2/2017 9:44 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
True enough, Miriam. I'm guilty as charged, but I don't have an
answer. Hopefully I can become better skilled in explaining my
opinions and beliefs so I am simply extending my views without
offending anyone...did I say that? Maybe what I should be attempting
to do is to express my beliefs and opinions in a way to challenge the
curiosity of others. Of course that is a most difficult thing to do.
We have packed so much emotion onto certain words, it is impossible to
use them without bringing down the roof. When I say that I am an
Agnostic, even Atheists jump on my back because, "You don't have the
backbone to take a stand". When I say that Man Created God to serve
Man's purposes, emotions flare.
People...many people, do not want their deep beliefs challenged. So
they defend by attacking. I spent some effort, even knowing that it
was a Fool's Errand, discussing my beliefs with Mostafa. That is,
Mostafa sends out his articles, and I respond with my thoughts. He
has never replied, but he does continue to keep me on his distribution
list. Since I return my opinions to his entire list, I suspect others
are reading what I write. But maybe not, since none of them reply.
At least not to me.
But I think my point is that I do not get my own self emotionally
involved. I really do not believe that anything I say to this list is
going to make folks sit up and say, "Wow! This Carl Jarvis is sure
some great mind!" Since I change my mind, or alter my position on
many issues, the more I read and think, I find that I have to go back
and see what it was I thought five years ago. Usually it is greatly
altered.
I just can't understand why folks can't simply say, "Carl, I disagree
with your remarks on multipleverses," instead of saying, "Carl, you
big dumb piece of Shit! How did your mother ever give birth to such
an oversized, inflated ego?"
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, but you do keep posting messages about how misguided people are who
have religious faith. So although you're not addressing anyone directly,
people who are involved in a religion, are hearing over and over again how
misguided they are. Over the last few days since this subject has come up, I
keep thinking about Ted. Remember how angry and disgruntled he was when he
left this list? Some of us, including me, were having these political
arguments with him. Some list members were much more direct than I even was,
attacking his positions very strongly. Ted had moderate political views, to
the right of many of our's, but not way to the right. He left the list
because he felt attacked and I remember that he said we were all, "leftist
Marxists", which was certainly not the case. But what was obvious was that
he felt alone and attacked on the list. All that arguing certainly didn't
convince him to change his mind. It may have caused him to shift to the
right. But whatever else it did, it caused him to feel rejected, and I'll
never stop regretting what happened and that he left.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 3:52 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
Abby,
As an avowed Agnostic, I neither attempt to convert others, nor fret if
others attempt to convert me.
I mean, how does one convert another person to Nothing? I can see myself
springing out from the doorway, into the face of some unsuspecting person,
shouting, "Agnosticism sure loves you!" and, "Repent and let Nothing enter
your heart!"
Probably not going to convert too many.
But at the same time, assuming some religious zealot leaps into my space and
demands, "Repent and ask Jesus into your heart!" I simply answer, "I
already did that. He entered into my heart months ago, and I've not seen
hide nor hair of Him since."
Yup, Agnosticism is like a big furry wrap around that protects you from
everything and nothing at all.
And it's light weight and never wrinkles!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger,
I said God wasn't a part of your life. It didn't occur to me that
that would include unwelcome efforts to convert you. I have the same
problem. In recent times, my public appearances include a wheelchair
pusher to get me through malls and grocery stores. More than once my
assistant has had to answer to those accusing him of not being attentive
to my spiritual needs.
Interesting that Jesus told his disciples that blind people are not
being punished for their sins. I do find myself having much in common
with atheists, in particular, their wanting to keep religion and
government out of each other's way. Maybe some day an atheist will
notice the physical evidence of my spiritual status and welcome me to the
fold.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is
tough to do.
Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first
joined.
Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my Beliefs
without taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that we all
are better at it.
Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day
we were conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can
be seen as a personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity to open
a discussion.
How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning
experience or a pissing match. Of course we can be shouted down with
profane curses, but rather than become offended or angered to the
point of returning the curses in triplicate, good judgement should
tell us to simply end the contact.
Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that
humans are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway my
opinion.
Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid? There's
nothing to be learned or discussed here. I'll simply delete you and
go forward believing my more learned sources of information. If I am
wrong, the planet will continue as it is. But if I'm right, and we
are contaminating Earth beyond its ability to cleanse itself, then you
will be destroyed along with all of us, and your name calling will not
save one single hair on your head.
But I digress.
We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa has
given me much information, mostly about the sort of person he is, but
also regarding his Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I can't really
enter into conversation regarding religion, but I certainly can learn.
As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I
would be disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace his
"true"
faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting him
down.
I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side,
making all other beliefs evil.
In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one better
than all others; little religions, each one better than all others;
little racial groups, each one better than all others. And on and on
and on. After thousands of years of this sort of nonsense, how can we
rise to a higher level, find the similarities and teaching Peace and
Respect instead of anger and hatred and violence?
Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the other
side.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the
head with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street
for going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been
followed around and preached at even though I politely told the
harasser that I was not interested. For the most part these jerks have
been Christian.
In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat me
over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I
have been able to actually discuss their religion with them without
their becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line,
though, it is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo
groups and came across an announce only group about the Quran. I was
a bit curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote from the
Quran and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity was
satisfied and I unsubscribed. The next day I found myself subscribed
again. After several attempts to leave the list I contacted the list
owner. I did not hear back until I contacted him several more times.
Finally I got a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed
because he was trying to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant
hell fire. Somehow I finally talked him into letting me go. Does this
behavior sound familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was not
Mustafa unless he uses another Arab pseudonym, but interestingly
enough this person was also based in Egypt.
With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would behave
the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As much as I
would like religion to not be a part of my life it is imposed on me
anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do not back down
from them though. If they want to make fools of themselves I am glad
to help them along. And that is why I have been engaging with Mustafa.
I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he is
making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he is
being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him. He
is encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself. And, by
the way, when someone screams at a blind person on the street that
god has struck him blind because he turned his back on Jesus then
that person will probably experience some amount of disrespect too.
On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are part
of my identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or say why
they are reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my culture.
I once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of the
house when she turned 18. She was offended by my father continuing
to send me money from beyond the grave.
I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a part
of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not
their beliefs.
I hope you get this.
You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people we
don't know.
On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion.
If Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are our
non believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over and
over again their reasons for thinking that religion is nonsense,
and that all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's religious
identity is part of one's personal identity. When, in the guise of
intellectual discussion, you attack an individual's religious
belief, it feels to that person like a personal attack. For people
on the political left, who see themselves as defenders of humanity
and civil liberties, these attacks on other people's beliefs are
unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to fight back with stronger or
nastier language, when one feels attacked.
That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
better part of valor.
Miriam
