Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is
tough to do.
Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first
joined. Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my
Beliefs without taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that
we all are better at it.
Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day
we were conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can
be seen as a personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity to
open a discussion. How we approach criticism determines whether it
becomes a learning experience or a pissing match. Of course we can be
shouted down with profane curses, but rather than become offended or
angered to the point of returning the curses in triplicate, good
judgement should tell us to simply end the contact.
Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that
humans are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway
my opinion. Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me
stupid? There's nothing to be learned or discussed here. I'll simply
delete you and go forward believing my more learned sources of
information. If I am wrong, the planet will continue as it is. But
if I'm right, and we are contaminating Earth beyond its ability to
cleanse itself, then you will be destroyed along with all of us, and
your name calling will not save one single hair on your head.
But I digress.
We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa has
given me much information, mostly about the sort of person he is, but
also regarding his Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I can't really
enter into conversation regarding religion, but I certainly can learn.
As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I
would be disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace his
"true" faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without
putting him down.
I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side,
making all other beliefs evil.
In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one better
than all others; little religions, each one better than all others;
little racial groups, each one better than all others. And on and on
and on. After thousands of years of this sort of nonsense, how can we
rise to a higher level, find the similarities and teaching Peace and
Respect instead of anger and hatred and violence?
Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the other side.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I would
rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the head with it
all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street for going blind
because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been followed around and
preached at even though I politely told the harasser that I was not
interested. For the most part these jerks have been Christian. In fact,
I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat me over the
head with his religion. But then, I have not known or encountered very
many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I have been able to
actually discuss their religion with them without their becoming
hysterical like so many Christians have. On line, though, it is a bit
different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo groups and came across
an announce only group about the Quran. I was a bit curious and
subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote from the Quran and a
commentary on it. After a while my curiosity was satisfied and I
unsubscribed. The next day I found myself subscribed again. After
several attempts to leave the list I contacted the list owner. I did not
hear back until I contacted him several more times. Finally I got a
reply telling me that I must remain subscribed because he was trying to
save me from the fire. Apparently he meant hell fire. Somehow I finally
talked him into letting me go. Does this behavior sound familiar? Well,
I am pretty sure that it was not Mustafa unless he uses another Arab
pseudonym, but interestingly enough this person was also based in Egypt.
With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would behave
the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As much as I
would like religion to not be a part of my life it is imposed on me
anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do not back down from
them though. If they want to make fools of themselves I am glad to help
them along. And that is why I have been engaging with Mustafa. I point
out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he is making
himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he is being when
he complains about others being disrespectful to him. He is encouraging
the disrespect by being disrespectful himself. And, by the way, when
someone screams at a blind person on the street that god has struck him
blind because he turned his back on Jesus then that person will probably
experience some amount of disrespect too.
On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are part of my
identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or say why they are
reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my culture. I once had a
working class friend whose parents threw her out of the house when she
turned 18. She was offended by my father continuing to send me money from
beyond the grave.
I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a part of
your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful toward
Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not their beliefs.
I hope you get this.
You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people we don't
know.
On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and I'm
sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob Evans, or
Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion. If Mustafa is
disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are our non believing
list members who feel impelled to repeat over and over again their
reasons for thinking that religion is nonsense, and that all believers
are stupid and ignorant. One's religious identity is part of one's
personal identity. When, in the guise of intellectual discussion, you
attack an individual's religious belief, it feels to that person like
a personal attack. For people on the political left, who see
themselves as defenders of humanity and civil liberties, these attacks
on other people's beliefs are unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to
fight back with stronger or nastier language, when one feels attacked.
That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the better
part of valor.
Miriam
