That's true, assuming the nation hangs together long enough for the
Green Party to gain a following. I'm seriously thinking of turning
Green. Even though it's still caught up in the Capitalists net, it
does advocate for reforms that might bring some real relief to the
working class.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/16, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The minimal positive effect of voting for Jill Stein is that the more
people
who vote Green, the better the chances are that the Green Party will be on
the ballot in more states and won't have to go through so much work to get
enough signatures just to get on the ballot.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 2:47 PM
To: blind-democracy
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Most Sanders Democratic Convention Delegates
Are Not Ready to Vote for Clinton, New Poll Finds
Of course whether I vote for Clinton or vote for Stein there will be a
negligible impact on the outcome of the election. But if enough of us vote
for Stein, or do not vote, Trump might squeak into the Oval Office,,,unless
he has a few more "Funniest Videos" hanging around.
But look, if I decide to have water with my lunch, I am not going to bring
the coffee or tea industries to their knees. Or should I be afraid that if
I fail to drink my fair share of coffee, I could be instrumental in either
forcing the price per cup upward, or causing thousands of coffee workers to
be laid off.
My first involvement in a presidential election was Eisenhower's second
term. I voted for Stevenson because I believed having a general, no matter
how kindly, and fatherly he appeared, having a general run the nation, sent
a wrong message in our claim that we were promoting World Peace. I have
always voted for the less war-like candidate. Most of them lost, except
for
John Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.
Notice any Men of Peace among those winners? So I won't vote for Hillary
Clinton, and it will make no difference to the outcome. Our Industrialists
and Wall Street types are not as foolish as were those in Germany back in
the 1930's. As greedy, but not as foolish. The election will go to
Clinton
because she has been well groomed(bought), and will serve her Master(s)
well.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/16, Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
This is OK but everyone needs to admit that support can come fromTrump.
action or inaction equally. The person who does not vote is using
inaction to promote Trump and the one that votes for a candidate that
isn't running a fully viable campaign is using action to support Trump.
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2016 11:46 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Most Sanders Democratic Convention
Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote for Clinton, New Poll Finds
This morning I listened to Alternative Radio and heard Noam Chomsky,
whom I hold in the highest regard, tell us that a vote for Jill Stein,
or for any of the Parties outside the "One Party", would be a vote for
Okay, so in mathematical terms, Noam is right. But that still willfrom the survey."
not move me to cast my vote for Clinton. Noam Chomsky goes on to tell
us that we need to face the fact that in the Real World one of these
two will be our next president. While I know from listening to
Chomsky, that he believes the Capitalist form of government is not
compatible with democracy, nonetheless, he maintains we need to elect
Clinton, and then begin a collective effort to force her to live up to
her more progressive planks in the democratic platform.
Certainly, once she is in office, I will do my part in this respect.
But I am unwilling to attach my support to either Clinton or Trump.
Neither represent the political party I once belonged to.
Below is a link to an interesting interview.
Carl Jarvis
chomsky barsamian - Alternative Radio
www.alternativeradio.org/search?q=chomsky+barsamian
On 10/8/16, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org) Home > Most Sanders
Democratic Convention Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote for Clinton,
New Poll Finds ________________________________________
Most Sanders Democratic Convention Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote
for Clinton, New Poll Finds By Steven Rosenfeld [1] / AlterNet [2]
October 7, 2016 Hillary Clinton has a Bernie Sanders problem-and it's
not about the former presidential candidate, who is now giving
swing-state speeches telling people to vote for her. The problem is a
sizable slice of his most ardent supporters don't want to.
A new survey of 461 Sanders delegates who attended the Democratic
National Convention found that less than one-fifth said they now
planned to personally vote for Clinton, whether they lived in a swing
state (19
percent) or a safe state (18 percent). One-sixth (17 percent) said
that they were undecided.
Six percent said they would write in Sanders' name. Six percent said
they would vote for "none of the above," which could mean not voting.
Less than one percent said they would vote for Libertarian Gary
Johnson, and an even smaller fraction of one percent said they would
vote for Donald Trump.
However, the percentages for Jill Stein, the Green Party presidential
candidate, were the widest ranging. In safe states, like California
where Clinton is expected to easily win, 24 percent of Bernie
convention delegates said they would vote for Stein. In swing states,
which Clinton needs to win for an electoral college victory, 9
percent said they were going to vote for Stein.
"The survey reflects Bernie delegates' thoughtful consideration of
their various voting options tempered by the political realities in
their states,"
said Donna Smith, who is also executive director of Progressive
Democrats of America, a group that was one of the first to encourage
Sanders to run as a Democrat. "They do seem to be highly unified in
their rejection of voting for Donald Trump."
"Many of those undecided Bernie delegates are no doubt still in the
decision-making process," she said. "We would need to drill down
further to determine if there were specific reasons why one-sixth of
the Bernie delegates who responded remain undecided."
While pollsters repeatedly have been finding that many young voters
are drawn to either Libertarian Gary Johnson or Green Jill Stein, the
survey by the Bernie Delegates Network appears to be the first of its
kind specifically asking Sanders campaign loyalists how they were
going to be voting this fall.
"We were gathering information," said Norman Solomon, who cofounded
the Bernie Delegates Network. "The numbers were not particularly what
I expected. We did the survey. Each delegate was offered one unique
link that could only be used one time. Speaking personally, I think
there is some delusion among the Clinton campaign that people are
going to fall in line, and that's not the case with a substantial
number of Bernie delegates."
Solomon, who's from northern California, said he expected a bigger
split between the percentage of delegates now supporting Clinton in
swing and safe states.
"I expected, and I certainly hoped for, a significant differentiation
between plans to vote Hillary Clinton in swing states and plans to
vote for Hillary Clinton in safe states, " he said, then elaborating:
"If I lived in a swing state, like Ohio or Florida, I would
absolutely vote for Hillary Clinton in November. If I lived in
California, I'd see no intention of voting for Hillary Clinton. But
that differential outlook is not reflected in the numbers we got back
from the survey."
"Bernie has been campaigning for Hillary and making it clear that he
supports the Clinton-Kaine ticket," Smith said. "It may be that
Bernie delegates are reflecting indecision that is more widely felt
by the American electorate."
Since late September, Sanders has been telling supporters that they
must elect Clinton and beat Trump. That started at a joint event in
New Hampshire where Clinton embraced Sanders' call for free tuition
at public universities and refinancing student loan rates.
"Now, during the campaign, the primary campaign, Secretary Clinton
had some very strong proposals. I had a different approach," he said
in that September event. "But we came together after the campaign and
reached an agreement that says that every family in this country
earning $125,000 or less-that is 83 percent of our population-should
be able to send their kids to public colleges and universities
tuition-free. And make no mistake about
it: This is a revolutionary proposal for the future of our country
with wide-reaching implications."
Since that speech telling supporters to vote for Clinton, Sanders has
been to Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan. The Clinton campaign
has issued media alerts saying Sanders will appear in coming days in
New Hampshire, Maine and Pennsylvania.
"Our job right now seems pretty clear to me: ... to defeat and to
defeat badly the worst candidate for president in the modern history
of the United States, Donald Trump," Sanders said this week in
Minneapolis. "Our job is to elect Hillary Clinton as president but to
also understand that our job is not done just by electing Secretary
Clinton. On the day after, we continue the movement. [As Rep.] Keith
Ellison told you-Keith Ellison told you that we, working with the
Clinton campaign, passed the most progressive platform, Democratic
platform, in the history of our country. Our job under President
Hillary Clinton is to see that that platform is implemented."
But impassioned words like these are not quite moving Sanders
supporters, Solomon said. "I've heard people say anecdotally, 'Well,
let's just see how the voting is.' On the phone, people from Florida
or Ohio, told me that.
They're just going to wait and see."
The Bernie Delegate Network numbers do suggest, however, that Sanders
supporters in swing states want their votes to matter-as evidenced by
the finding that only 9 percent said they would vote for Stein,
compared to 24 percent in safe states.
"There's always been a wide range of Bernie delegates," Solomon said.
"The comfort level of voting for Jill Stein isn't notably high in
swing states, because you can see that twice as many people have not
made up their minds.
My overall supposition is that a lot of these delegates in swing
states are going to wait and see how the polling looks right before
the election."
Were these Stein supporters being too principled?
"It would be a broad generalization to say that all Bernie delegates
choosing to vote for Jill Stein or any other candidate are doing so
due to one factor alone," Smith said. "Some Bernie delegates may be
considering the political implications of a Stein vote while others
may be doing so because of Green Party platform positions."
"I agree with what Noam Chomsky has said," Solomon said. "It's the
context.
You know people don't honor their principles when they put gas in
their car if they are against climate change. We all do, if you will,
make choices between options that we don't believe are inclusive of
the options we would want. But people will deal with this in
different ways."
Steven Rosenfeld covers national political issues for AlterNet,
including America's retirement crisis, democracy and voting rights,
and campaigns and elections. He is the author of "Count My Vote: A
Citizen's Guide to Voting"
(AlterNet Books, 2008).
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Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/most-sanders-democratic-convent
i on-del egates-are-not-ready-vote-clinton-new-poll-finds
Links:
[1] http://www.alternet.org/authors/steven-rosenfeld
[2] http://alternet.org
[3] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Most Sanders
Democratic Convention Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote for Clinton,
New Poll Finds [4] http://www.alternet.org/ [5]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org) Home > Most Sanders
Democratic Convention Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote for Clinton,
New Poll Finds
Most Sanders Democratic Convention Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote
for Clinton, New Poll Finds By Steven Rosenfeld [1] / AlterNet [2]
October 7, 2016 AddThis Sharing Buttons Share to FacebookShare to
TwitterShare to Google+Share to MoreShare to Email
Hillary Clinton has a Bernie Sanders problem-and it's not about the
former presidential candidate, who is now giving swing-state speeches
telling people to vote for her. The problem is a sizable slice of his
most ardent supporters don't want to.
A new survey of 461 Sanders delegates who attended the Democratic
National Convention found that less than one-fifth said they now
planned to personally vote for Clinton, whether they lived in a swing
state (19
percent) or a safe state (18 percent). One-sixth (17 percent) said
that they were undecided.
Six percent said they would write in Sanders' name. Six percent said
they would vote for "none of the above," which could mean not voting.
Less than one percent said they would vote for Libertarian Gary
Johnson, and an even smaller fraction of one percent said they would
vote for Donald Trump.
However, the percentages for Jill Stein, the Green Party presidential
candidate, were the widest ranging. In safe states, like California
where Clinton is expected to easily win, 24 percent of Bernie
convention delegates said they would vote for Stein. In swing states,
which Clinton needs to win for an electoral college victory, 9
percent said they were going to vote for Stein.
"The survey reflects Bernie delegates' thoughtful consideration of
their various voting options tempered by the political realities in
their states,"
said Donna Smith, who is also executive director of Progressive
Democrats of America, a group that was one of the first to encourage
Sanders to run as a Democrat. "They do seem to be highly unified in
their rejection of voting for Donald Trump."
"Many of those undecided Bernie delegates are no doubt still in the
decision-making process," she said. "We would need to drill down
further to determine if there were specific reasons why one-sixth of
the Bernie delegates who responded remain undecided."
While pollsters repeatedly have been finding that many young voters
are drawn to either Libertarian Gary Johnson or Green Jill Stein, the
survey by the Bernie Delegates Network appears to be the first of its
kind specifically asking Sanders campaign loyalists how they were
going to be voting this fall.
"We were gathering information," said Norman Solomon, who cofounded
the Bernie Delegates Network. "The numbers were not particularly what
I expected. We did the survey. Each delegate was offered one unique
link that could only be used one time. Speaking personally, I think
there is some delusion among the Clinton campaign that people are
going to fall in line, and that's not the case with a substantial
number of Bernie delegates."
Solomon, who's from northern California, said he expected a bigger
split between the percentage of delegates now supporting Clinton in
swing and safe states.
"I expected, and I certainly hoped for, a significant differentiation
between plans to vote Hillary Clinton in swing states and plans to
vote for Hillary Clinton in safe states, " he said, then elaborating:
"If I lived in a swing state, like Ohio or Florida, I would
absolutely vote for Hillary Clinton in November. If I lived in
California, I'd see no intention of voting for Hillary Clinton. But
that differential outlook is not reflected in the numbers we got back
"Bernie has been campaigning for Hillary and making it clear that he
supports the Clinton-Kaine ticket," Smith said. "It may be that
Bernie delegates are reflecting indecision that is more widely felt
by the American electorate."
Since late September, Sanders has been telling supporters that they
must elect Clinton and beat Trump. That started at a joint event in
New Hampshire where Clinton embraced Sanders' call for free tuition
at public universities and refinancing student loan rates.
"Now, during the campaign, the primary campaign, Secretary Clinton
had some very strong proposals. I had a different approach," he said
in that September event. "But we came together after the campaign and
reached an agreement that says that every family in this country
earning $125,000 or less-that is 83 percent of our population-should
be able to send their kids to public colleges and universities
tuition-free. And make no mistake about
it: This is a revolutionary proposal for the future of our country
with wide-reaching implications."
Since that speech telling supporters to vote for Clinton, Sanders has
been to Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan. The Clinton campaign
has issued media alerts saying Sanders will appear in coming days in
New Hampshire, Maine and Pennsylvania.
"Our job right now seems pretty clear to me: ... to defeat and to
defeat badly the worst candidate for president in the modern history
of the United States, Donald Trump," Sanders said this week in
Minneapolis. "Our job is to elect Hillary Clinton as president but to
also understand that our job is not done just by electing Secretary
Clinton. On the day after, we continue the movement. [As Rep.] Keith
Ellison told you-Keith Ellison told you that we, working with the
Clinton campaign, passed the most progressive platform, Democratic
platform, in the history of our country. Our job under President
Hillary Clinton is to see that that platform is implemented."
But impassioned words like these are not quite moving Sanders
supporters, Solomon said. "I've heard people say anecdotally, 'Well,
let's just see how the voting is.' On the phone, people from Florida
or Ohio, told me that.
They're just going to wait and see."
The Bernie Delegate Network numbers do suggest, however, that Sanders
supporters in swing states want their votes to matter-as evidenced by
the finding that only 9 percent said they would vote for Stein,
compared to 24 percent in safe states.
"There's always been a wide range of Bernie delegates," Solomon said.
"The comfort level of voting for Jill Stein isn't notably high in
swing states, because you can see that twice as many people have not
made up their minds.
My overall supposition is that a lot of these delegates in swing
states are going to wait and see how the polling looks right before
the election."
Were these Stein supporters being too principled?
"It would be a broad generalization to say that all Bernie delegates
choosing to vote for Jill Stein or any other candidate are doing so
due to one factor alone," Smith said. "Some Bernie delegates may be
considering the political implications of a Stein vote while others
may be doing so because of Green Party platform positions."
"I agree with what Noam Chomsky has said," Solomon said. "It's the
context.
You know people don't honor their principles when they put gas in
their car if they are against climate change. We all do, if you will,
make choices between options that we don't believe are inclusive of
the options we would want. But people will deal with this in
different ways."
Steven Rosenfeld covers national political issues for AlterNet,
including America's retirement crisis, democracy and voting rights,
and campaigns and elections. He is the author of "Count My Vote: A
Citizen's Guide to Voting"
(AlterNet Books, 2008).
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.
Report typos and corrections to 'corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx'. [3] Error!
Hyperlink reference not valid.[4]
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Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/most-sanders-democratic-convent
i on-del egates-are-not-ready-vote-clinton-new-poll-finds
Links:
[1] http://www.alternet.org/authors/steven-rosenfeld
[2] http://alternet.org
[3] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Most Sanders
Democratic Convention Delegates Are Not Ready to Vote for Clinton,
New Poll Finds [4] http://www.alternet.org/ [5]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
