I changed the subject line only because I want to say something about Cuba. I
don't have a real difference of opinion with your argument. But I would like to
say one or two things. And by the way, there is a very good, very long book
called, I think, Back Channel To Cuba, on Bookshare. Given the fact that the
US opposed all of Castro's original friendly overtures to the US, attempted
repeatedly to overthrow its government, and tried to assassinate its leader,
and the fact that it is a tiny country adjacent to a powerful giant country,
givings its citizens freedom would have meant the dissolution of its
government. There are US agents there constantly attempting to demolish it. I'm
opposed to authoritarianism and I'm all for freedom of expression and freedom
of choice and voting. But let's get real here. The US always treated Cuba as
its possession, a playground for its wealthy, the place where the Mafia could
run free. It never cared a damn about the Cuban people. Whatever Cuba's
shortcomings, and I'm sure its government has many, it provides excellent
medical care for its people and for many other people in the region. It manages
to keep all of its people alive and safe during all of those tropical storms
and hurricanes. So I think we should give it a little slack. Compare what
happened to our people during our many hurricanes and what kind of health care
is available to our poor people, and lets give Cuba its due.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 11:54 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: New member
Okay, I've heard this scenario before, and just for the sake of discussion,
I'll grant its vallidity.
The problem is what happens after the revolution of the oppressed class.
From the many examples we have seen, what always happens is that the formerly
oppressed class simply becomes the new ruling class, and the cycle starts all
over again. I could go into a long litany of revolutions, some called
themselves Communist, some called themselves Socialist, where this has been
played out, but I don't think I need to.
When I asked you where this has been tried and how it worked out, the only
example you mentioned was Cuba. And even there, how much freedom do the people
have? When was the last time they were permitted to choose their leaders? How
much criticism of their government are they permitted?
The reason for this is that dominance hierarchies are wired into our genetics.
You can see it in our chimp relatives and ape ancestors. It goes back much
farther than that into our mammalian ancestry though. Until or unless humans
get a genetic makeover, the notion of a classless society will always remain a
pipe dream.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 12:58 AM
To: blind-democracy
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: New member
Okay, let me explain the inevitability of revolution in more detail. In a class
society the people who find themselves in the oppressed classes will resent
this. Despite the fact that ruling class ideology permeates society as a whole
on an individual level and collectively when the individuals combine their
actions resentment is there and people will take actions to lessen the
disparities that they are subject to. These actions may take the form of
organizing unions or it may take the form of engaging in political action, but
the whole point is to make the social system more fair. During most of the time
the organizers of the resistance do not even see the necessity of overthrowing
the entire system, but think they can reform it into something that will be
more fair. Because of fluctuations in a class economy these disparities may be
greater at some times than at other times and the amount of resistance may be
greater than it is at other times. This is all called the class struggle.
Sometimes the oppressed classes will make gains and the rulers have to make
concessions to maintain their rule and at other times it is the oppressed
classes that have to make the concessions. One thing the oppressed classes do
not want to do is to get involved in a revolution. Let's face it, revolution is
not only to the great disadvantage of the class that is being deposed, but a
lot of workers die and a lot of infrastructure is destroyed and it is to the
great disadvantage of everyone. However, as the class struggle ebbs and flows
the point comes that the rulers see that they may be in actual danger of being
deposed. They will resist that by any means necessary. Concessions is one
means, but if the push for an equitable system continues other means are used.
That means violence. In every revolution in history the violence was initiated
by the rulers in an attempt to maintain their rule. What are the ruled to do?
They have to defend themselves. If they do not defend themselves they lose
every bit of progress they have made up until that time and they are likely to
lose their lives too. As they defend themselves against violence with return
violence the violence escalates. This becomes a process that cannot be stopped
by either side because each side stands to lose everything if they give up. It
is something like a natural disaster. When a hurricane, for example, approaches
you cannot stop the hurricane no matter what you do. You can only deal with it.
A lot of planning and preparation make it easier to deal with with, but whether
you deal with it well or poorly it is still going to happen. That is what a
revolutionary party is for, to deal with the revolution when it happens. That
is where the responsibility comes in. It is responsible to have a cadre of
people who are trained in how to deal with revolution and who will step in to
guide the revolution when it comes to make sure that the best outcome is
arrived at.
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe in
telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in life after
death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of unrelieved
negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement,
and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no
matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and
more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence
will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 10/24/2018 11:03 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Sorry, but that sounds like a ducking of responsibility to me.
So Lenin had no choice when he committed his oppression? Was it all
just an inevitable product of ineluctable historical forces? He was
just a tool of history, and had no responsibility for what he did?
You may consider that too many questions, but they're all related, so
they really boil down to one: Do humans have responsibility for what
they do or not?
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 10:49 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Miriam Vieni
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: New member
As I have said before, you don't get a choice of whether you get a
revolution or not. When Trotsky was asked if all the destruction and
death was worth it he said that the question was teleological. When
class contradictions sharpen to the point that revolution breaks out
the best you can do is to steer it and guide it into the best outcome
you can and ameliorate the destruction that occurs along the way.
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe
in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in
life after death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of
unrelieved negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation,
measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll
believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is
evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however,
the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 10/24/2018 9:45 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Evan,
What about peaceful change as revolution? That's about the only kind
of revolution I'd support. The problem is, it doesn't seem as if
powerful social forces can be controlled.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:48 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: New member
I would like to add my voice to the welcomes, Mary.
I've seen you on other lists. You seem pretty tech savvy, which is cool.
I am also new here. I joined last week. On social issues I'm
definitely left of center, but on economic issues I'm in the center,
or maybe even a bit to the right. I support the current economic
system. I defend the "capitalist running dogs" around here. (Yes,
some people actually talked like that in the 20th century.
Fortunately, humanity has moved on since then. Mostly that
is.)
Seriously though, I am more than happy to talk about shortcomings of
the current economic model and how to fix them, but I'm not
interested in revolution. I'm with John Lennon:
But when you talk about destruction,
Don'tcha know that you can count me out.
So once again, welcome. I hope you enjoy it here.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:50 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: New member
Hello and welcome, Mary.
If you have a natural curiosity and a sense of adventure, you've come
to the right list. We do try hard to stay on target and not fall
into name calling, as happens on the ACB chat list at times. But a
good sense of humor and a moderately thick skin, and you'll soon be right at
home.
As for me, besides being Carl Jarvis, I am a self proclaimed
Progressive, an Agnostic, and 83 years old. My wife and I provide
services to older blind and low vision folks on the Great Olympic
Peninsula, through our organization named, Peninsula Rehabilitation
Services. We've been at it almost 24 years and have worked with well
over 3,000 clients. I'm totally blind...for the past 55 years.
Cathy and I work as a team since living here in the deep, dark forest
does not allow a blind man the ability to travel to many of our clients
alone.
And just for the record, eating, sleeping, working, vacationing and
breathing the same air day after day finds us still deeply in love
with one another.
Carl Jarvis
(PS. Cathy's horse is down this morning. She's called the vet and
is trying to get him up and moving. I was going to buy a new
keyboard today, but it's looking as if I'll have to make do with
these sticky keys for a while longer.)
On 10/23/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello Mary,
This list is suddenly becoming busy. We've acquired two new members
and will, I believe, be acquiring another one. It's an ill wind that
blows no good, they say. I do believe we can thank Mr. Trump for the
rejuvenation of this list. At any rate, I'll forward one of the Real
News Network digests to the list. It's a website which has excellent
little news videos that you can listen to and also, there's a text
of each one, I believe. I'll forward one of the digests. You go to
the heading of the story in which you're interested, which is also a
link, and then, you move down until you find a play button and press enter.
If you find the website, you can sign up for your own digests. The
website is in Baltimore. Its founder, Paul Jay, comes from Canada,
and it does national, international, and local Baltimore news.
Some of my favorite people are on there: max Blumenthal, Ben Norton,
Dean Baker, etc.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:44 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] New member
Hi folks,
I just joined this list, of whose existence I had no idea until a
friend forwarded me a book recommendation from one of the BARD
lists, where this list was mentioned. I recognize Miriam's name from
the bookshare list of many years ago. We liked lots of the same
books on political/historical topics. Anyway, I joined out of
curiosity to see what the list was like.
I've seen a couple posts, one of which mentioned the real news
network, with which I am not familiar. what is it?
Mary
