[bksvol-discuss] Re: SAVE Page numbers, Page Breaks
- From: "Gerald Hovas" <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:07:10 -0500
Rick,
Sounds like you restated it correctly.
I don't see any reason to explain that a page is blank. I once saw a
textbook where the publisher had done the same thing in print, and I thought
the practice looked rather stupid, especially since the page was no longer
blank once the note had been added. <Smile> Sighted people don't have any
trouble recognizing a blank page and realizing that it was left blank on
purpose, and I personally don't understand why blind people would need any
help recognizing a blank page and realizing the same thing either.
I've been adding the page number and putting a blank line above and below it
though as insurance that the Stripper won't default to the wrong page
number, but I've noticed that the Stripper has trouble recognizing the page
number, probably because it's the only line on the page. I've considered
just leaving it blank because this causes the double set of page numbers on
that page, but I'm still hesitating doing that because the head of
Engineering once mentioned that the Stripper has trouble occasionally when
the page doesn't have a page number. Sounds like one of those situations
where there's no good choice. For the moment I'm erring on the side of
adding the page number to the page since I believe this is easiest to
correct and would hopefully be fixed at some point then the collection rerun
through the tools at a later time correcting this problem. The collection
wouldn't be rerun for something this minor, but that doesn't mean it won't
be rerun for something else later on, like when NIMAS is supported or
Bookshare is required to support a newer version of the DAISY standard.
Oh, almost forgot to mention that you're correct in treating the roman
numeral page numbers just like arabic page numbers. So far I haven't caught
the tools not recognizing them as page numbers. Guess they got that right.
HTH
Gerald
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rik James
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:10 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: SAVE Page numbers, Page Breaks
Wow, Gerald, thanks for this message, and taking your time to explain in
such detail.
I think I'm doing it this way now, but sadly, the first books I ever
scanned, I was not so well informed. In fact, there was an email to me one
time, saying they thought I had missing pages because of problems in the
pagination. I had never paid one iota attention to pages before that. Now,
I always do, at least to be sure I don't skip or double up on them.
The only thing I didn't know was about the need for a blank line at the end
of each page, which sometimes are already there, but I will make sure of
that in the future. It makes sense that the stripper might see that it being
too close to the next page's number.
If I understand this correctly then, in my earnest attempt at being clear
and at the expense of being tirelessly repetitive... (!)
A Blank line above and below the page number at the top of the page.
A blaink line above and below the chapter title below the page number.
And to be sure there is a blank line at the bottom of each page.
Now, how about the Roman numeral pages?
Just do those as the other page numbers? That is what I have been doing.
(Even though my speech does not know about how to say them!)
And, how about pages that are blank, but ARE included in the pagination?
What I have been doing (after my awakening), is this:
I have been putting a page number on that page, with a blank line above and
below it. And then under that I have been inserting the text
[NOTE: PAGE IS BLANK]
And an additional blank line under that.
Okay?
When I'm wrong, I'll admit it, unlike so many of our public figures today!
(smile)
Our local library is moving! It will go from a distance from my place of 8
blocks to 15. Oh well, exercise can't be THAT bad for you, can it? Since
they have an extended return due date time for borrowers, I have borrowed a
few extra of some books by some Montana authors I find missing from
Bookshare's collection (Richard Hugo, Jim Harrison, Richard Ford), and I was
planning on trying to scan some for Bookshare in the next few weeks.
I have 2 book submissions still awating validation, both books of short
fiction:
Gallatin Canyon. By Thomas McGuane
Blues and Trouble. By Tom Piazza
Both should be pretty quick validates, as I took care in their production in
using the above methodology and uised the spell checkers before submitting.
Thanks.
Rik
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gerald Hovas
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:30 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: SAVE Page numbers, Page Breaks
Barbara,
The Bookshare tools don't strip page numbers. Some volunteers incorrectly
came to this conclusion when they couldn't see them in K-1000. However,
just because they weren't able to see them in K-1000 doesn't mean that they
were stripped. The problem was due to Bookshare and KESI storing the page
numbers differently in the NCX file because the previous DAISY standard
didn't specifically state how to store them. For proof that they weren't
stripped, all you have to do is look at one of the BRF books or the HTML
files which can be unpacked with the DAISY book.
Now, that doesn't mean that page numbers might not be stripped by a
volunteer who doesn't know what they are doing. If they use either K-1000
or OpenBook to strip the headers/footers automatically, then they'll strip
the page numbers right along with the text since page numbers are part of
either the header or the footer. Some new volunteers even think they are
supposed to strip page numbers to make the text flow more smoothly when
reading with speech.
Now to answer your question as to how to handle page numbers at the bottom
of the page so that the Bookshare tools will handle them properly.
* Leave a blank line before the page number as insurance to make sure the
Stripper doesn't get confused about the page number being the footer.
* Strip any text if it happens to be in the footer along with spaces and
tabs to make the Stripper's job of recognizing the page number simple.
There's no harm in doing this because if the Stripper recognizes the footer,
then it will strip the text anyway.
* Leave a blank line between the page number and the page break to prevent
the page number from becoming part of the last paragraph in the HTML file
that can be unpacked with the DAISY book.
Here's a few more steps to make sure the book turns out well
* Since the page numbers aren't part of the header, then strip the entire
header to prevent any headers from being left in the book because the
Stripper overlooks them due to their not being identical to the other
headers. Again, there's no harm in doing this because if the Stripper
recognizes the header, then it will strip it anyway.
* If there are chapter headings in the book, then you'll want to create a
header for the Stripper to strip on that page to prevent the chapter heading
from being stripped. I recommend using the title because I've seen someone
use the word Header, and the Stripper left it in the book. This was
probably due to it being added to pages which shouldn't have a header.
There would have been less confusion on the part of the reader, though, if
the title had been used, and possibly less on the tool's part as well.
Now for the other case where page numbers are part of the header, since some
of the newer volunteers may be wondering what to do to prevent problems due
to the tool known as the Stripper
* Leave a blank line between the page number and the page break to prevent
the page number from becoming part of the first paragraph in the HTML file
that can be unpacked with the DAISY book.
* Strip any text, spaces, and tabs which happen to be in the header to make
the Stripper's job of recognizing the page number simple. There's no harm
in this since the Stripper will strip them anyway if it recognizes the
header.
* Do not put anything above the page number-including dashes, asterisks, or
other symbols-because that will make that line the header, and page numbers
must be in the header or footer in order for the tool to process them. BTW,
if page numbers aren't allowed to be processed because volunteers add that
extra line above the page number thinking they are preventing the page
number from being stripped, then it will cause two sets of page numbers in
the BRF and HTML files: the real page numbers which have now become part of
the main text and the page numbers which the Stripper uses as a default
because it couldn't find any page numbers, and the two sets may or may not
agree depending on how the pages in the book are numbered.
* Leave a blank line after the page number as insurance to make sure the
Stripper doesn't get confused about the page number being the header
* If the book has chapter headings, then move the page number from the
bottom of the page to the top of the page if the page number is included at
the bottom of the page. If the page with the chapter heading doesn't
include a page number, then add one above the chapter heading. Use the same
guidelines as mentioned above for handling the page number if it were part
of the header. Adding the page number or moving it to the top of the page
will prevent the Stripper from confusing the chapter heading with a header
and stripping it.
Here are a few examples of how pages should look for those who understand
better from examples. Just as a note, I'm using [Page Break] to represent a
page break and a vertical ellipsis (three periods each on a line by itself),
followed by Main Text, and another vertical ellipsis to represent the main
text on the page since I don't want to copy a page from a book or make up a
bunch of text, and because I want to keep the examples short.
Example of a page with a chapter heading when the page numbers are normally
at the top of the page
[Page Break]
41
CHAPTER THREE
Main Text
[Page Break]
Example of a page with a chapter heading when the page numbers are always
found at the bottom of the page
[Page Break]
The Pelican Brief
Chapter 7
Main Text
[Page Break]
Example of a page without a chapter heading when pages appear at the top of
the page
[Page Break]
80
Main Text
[Page Break]
Example of a page without a chapter heading when pages appear at the bottom
of the page
[Page Break]
Main Text
99
[Page Break]
HTH
Gerald
P.S.
People,
Yes,I know some of you use other methods to protect chapter headings, and I
also know that some of the methods volunteers recommend don't actually work
after all because I've looked into what works and what doesn't, so everyone
please refrain from explaining how they do it to prevent confusion.
Thanks,
Gerald
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Barbara J Wagreich
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:38 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Barbara J Wagreich
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Page numbers
Hi:
I have a book of poems I wnat to submit. the page nubmers are at the
bottom of each page. How do I enter the page nubmers so they won't get
stripped out in the conversion process to daisy and braille formats?
Also the back cover page has relevant info. where do I insert this info?
at the end of th e book?
Thanks,
Barbara Wagreich
To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of
available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
Other related posts:
