Tom; A NEW observing accessory--a comfortable mattress and a sleeping bag? Ah, horizontal observing..... I have naked eye notes from a good night at 5000 ft. altitude at Dugas Rd. that I rated 7/10 for transparency. I was able to hold steady a star that was 6.9 magnitude and glimpse one of 7.2 about 20 percent of the time. Those notes are also from a long time ago and my eyes were younger, then. It seems that was a night that I was doing some binocular observing of Summer Milky Way and so didn't have a telescope to distract me from just looking around. I probably used the "how many stars inside the Bowl of the Dipper" thing to get those numbers, but I took poor notes and just jotted down the final values. One of these days, I am going to do this again and see how the passage of 15 years has effected the results. Then again, maybe I don't want to know. Agree with you, Tom, I think that folks who see deep can pick out stars of 7.5 mag regularly from a good site, I would not dispute that. Steve stevecoe@xxxxxxxxx Author: Deep Sky Observing--The Astronomical Tourist Saguaro Astronomy Club web site: www.saguaroastro.org -- See message header for info on list archives or unsubscribing, and please send personal replies to the author, not the list.