Here are two observations of NGC 4143 (Canes Venatici) with two very different apertures. NGC 4143 6" f/8 refractor S=6, T=6 14mm eyepiece pretty faint, pretty small, very little elongated 1.2X1, bright middle with almost stellar nucleus. NGC 4143 13" f/5.6 Sentinel S+T=8 Pretty bright, pretty large, elongated 1.5 X 1 in PA 135, much brighter in the middle at 135X. Paul, thanks for the excellent report on your trip to the North Rim. Those are certainly memorable nights with the Milky Way is that prominent and detail is so easy to see. Take Care; Steve Coe -- See message header for info on list archives or unsubscribing, and please send personal replies to the author, not the list.