Thank you Nic.
On 3/18/2022 7:08 PM, Nic Nilov wrote:
Yves,Yes I have updated drivers/firmware of my printer. But I did the profile after with the new setting, so I don't think this apply in my case.
I had a situation which seems to be similar to what you are observing. Also a new paper, custom self-made ICC profile, and a strong sepia tone when printed. There were in total three scenarios I encountered a similar issue in.
1. As a result of a printer firmware update, new paper media settings were installed and some of the pre-existing media settings stopped working. The manifestation was an unexpected sepia tone on prints. Notably, the affected paper was of the printer manufacturer, and its settings were completely stock, no custom ICC profile. It was necessary to recreate the paper settings based on the new media settings to make this paper print correctly again.
I noticed the profiles made using a polarizing filter (M3) gave this sepiaish color, some Red River papers I used have this problem. I made a custom profile without using the M3 filter and the results where fine.
2. I was using an incorrect selection of media with one of the third-party papers I use. The manifestation was a slight sepia/reddish tone and quite pronounced bronzing. After I switched to a different media settings (although also switched the ICC profile) the situation was resolved.
I don't think this applies either, since the profile was after those setting have changed.
3. The originally mentioned scenario where the paper was completely new, not well known, no manufacturer ICC profile, so I created my own. This is the scenario where the sepia tone was very pronounced. I put a decent effort into the investigation but was not able to decisively resolve this. One of the reasons for it is I wasn't that interested in this particular paper, and the other was that some of the aspects I was discovering in the process were quite beyond my level of understanding. Below are some of my findings.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.
The ICC profile (made by me using Argyll) was one of the things I looked into. What I found is that the ICC profile, when applied manually to the image the same way as it would be at print time, had a correct result, no sepia tone. When applied in soft-proofing mode, that is, in the opposite direction, it did result in the same sepia tone as on print. Note that in this setup the printer is out of the equation, it's just calculations on the image itself. Therefore one potential culprit would be that the ICC profile was not applied correctly by the pipeline (or created by Argyll), which is not likely. As there was no vendor ICC-profile for this paper, I could not compare directly, but a vendor profile of another paper did not produce such tint in either direction.
Another possibility is that I printed the calibration targets (840 patches) with color correction applied. I did try to avoid that and used Adobe Color Printer Utility, but if I made a mistake, it might explain the resulting profile having a deviation from the neutral. I did not try to re-print the targets, as like I said, making this paper work was not critical.
Here are some things to try beyond what was already suggested.
Verify the ICC profile itself is neutral enough and is not the source of the unwanted sepia tint. This is done by applying the profile to a tiff image in direct and soft-proofing mode, as described in https://torger.se/anders/photography/argyll-print.html#soft_proofing. If there is a similar sepia tint on one of the resulting images, the ICC profile is probably faulty.
Change the printer media settings to another type of paper, see whether it affects the tone on print. If it does, the ICC profile might be fine but the media settings might need tuning.
Since you are using non-original inks, their viscosity may be different which may affect the dot gain. If the inks are more liquid, the dot gain would be greater and the print would come out darker. Should be fixable by regulating the amount of ink in the media settings or printing with one of the Photoshop stock Dot Gain profiles (only for diagnostics of course).
Cheers.
On Mar 18, 2022, at 23:38, Yves Gauvreau <gauvreauyves@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Unfortunately, I can't do that because I don't use the original inks, after verification the gamut are different especially for mate papers, which present a significant loss of DMax.
Thanks for the Rodney link, I'm going to have a little bit of fun with all the info in there.
I think I got it though, my setup works fine for other paper and profiles I have, I have a quasi perfect match most of the time. With this specific paper, well it's more difficult.
"Most of them are pretty decent in my experience" I have had the same experience except with Red River profiles, they are way off. a B&W inmage prints sepia with there profile, which is nice if that's what you want but with a custom profile B&W are B&W.
As for printing from Lightroom, I would think that Adobe is using the exact same engine as in Photoshop (CMM).
Yves
On 3/18/2022 4:28 PM, Alan Goldhammer (agoldhammer) wrote:
If you are concerned about your profile, use the profile that the paper manufacturer has made for your printer. Most of them are pretty decent in my experience and you could then see if your profile is the problem. As I noted you do need to find a good standard test print. You can print it letting the printer manage colors and see if you still get a dark print. I don’t print from Photoshop only Lightroom and don’t know if there are somethings that need to be done in Photoshop but it is possible to double profile which can cause problems. Just double check all the settings in your work flow along with making sure the printer driver is current. Only other possibility is that there is something wrong with your printer.
Alan
*From:*argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<argyllcms-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>*On Behalf Of*Yves Gauvreau
*Sent:*Friday, March 18, 2022 4:09 PM
*To:*argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:*[argyllcms] Re: Prints to dark, how to fix this?
On 3/18/2022 12:01 PM, Alan Goldhammer (agoldhammer) wrote:
This video from Andrew Rodney is useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS6sjZmxjY4
What happens if you print a standardized image from your printer?
I forgot to try this.
Are the colors and brightness level correct?
I use Photoshop to soft proof the image before printing and I make a copy without soft proofing active and I try to match them as best as I can. Whatever I do here, the print is much darker, it's unacceptable to me when I have to tweak my image before printing, that's guess work.
What is the light source you are viewing the "too dark images"
under? Perhaps your viewing light source is not bright enough.
Remember, prints are reflective; the monitor is transmissive.
Personally, I think your screen brightness is very low. Are you
using it in a dark room?
I use a high CRI > 95 5000K 800 Lumens Led bulb to view my prints and about 2 feet above the print. My screen is a BenQ SW270C that I hardware calibrated with my I1 Pro 2 and on top of that I made another profile with DisplayCal and I get pretty good results, nothing above 1.0 DE2000 and I view my screen in about 30 lux of light measured at 2 feet from my screen.
I'm practically certain it's the profile but I don't know how to test this hypothesis and if I'm right, I don't know either how to correct it so I don't have to tweak my image all the time, I'm not convinced at all that this is the way to go.
Yves
