This message was posted by signman on AmayaUsers.com. PLEASE DO NOT REPLY VIA EMAIL. Instead, respond to the thread on the WEBSITE by clicking here: http://www.amayausers.com/boards/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/904.html#000003 The CCF frame (original type) is totally different than the WACF frame as to how it holds the caps. We use nothing but the CCF and have never had a cap shift, but can't do visors-I"ve tried-end up with no usable area to sew! Well, maybe half an inch...which won't do. The WACF uses the steel 'band' to hold the hats down and one of these days I'm going to follow Ed's and several other's advice and see if I can get it to work. I can't see how there would be any slippage with the WACF-that toothed band really grabs. The CCF frame uses more of a 'bar clamp' holding system and if the hat is pulled down tight before applying it-there isn't any movement. =========================================================== The AmayaUsers Mailing List Website: http://www.amayausers.com Discussion Board: http://www.amayausers.com/boards Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://www.amayausers.com/list ===========================================================