[access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re: COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST

  • From: "Damon" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:07:53 -0000

The sainsburys Local near me take it too. they seem to put it in a machine 
behind the desk and I tap the PIN into the one on the desk.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barry Hill" <bbinc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:52 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re: 
COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST


>I didn't know that a store isn't supposed to handle my card so every store
> that I use my card in, I have handed my card over for the staff to put in
> the machine.  Now that I think about it, if my card was cloned, the bank
> might be able to claim that I was to blame for handing my card over.  I
> think I'll check up on this the next time I go to my bank.
>
> Barry
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:55 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re:
> COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST
>
>
> Tesco have always taken customers cards to scan, and I waite for them to
> tell me
> when to enter my PPIN.
>
> Maybe this is peculiar to Tesco alone?
>
> From Ray
> I can be contacted off-list at:
> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf
> Of Graham Page
>
>
> I have to say I have never been given this advice about cards.  I have 
> just
> handed the card over and if necessary I suppose appeared forceful enough 
> to
> make them take it.
>
> The assistant could guide you to the slot to put your card in I suppose. 
> It
> all depends on how adaptable and resourceful the assistant is and what if
> any training and general advice has been given.
>
> Many people, irrespective of the amount of sight they have have just not
> been shown the technology so the assistant needs to know how to describe 
> the
> usage of the machine for a start.
>
> If you risk dying though if you touch latex then I suppose that remains 
> the
> more fundamental issue.  I have not heard of this being an issue and blind
> people are often asked about how things like keypads or equipment could be
> made better.  I think that people are not consulted anywhere near as often
> as they should be but the question does arise and it is important to take
> into account issues other people may have when trying to use good design
> practice.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Graham
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Emma Wright" <emmajane9@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:49 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re:
> COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST
>
>
> I did try your suggestion about asking a shop assistant to help me and
> was told they weren't allowed to touch the customers card any more and
> I had to do it myself.  I guess it depends on store policy, but it did
> put me off a bit!  After that I found out about the latex risk, and
> gave up using chip and pin.  It seems to me that latex is a really
> strange thing to make the buttons from as so many people are allergic
> to it, and many could die instantly if they came into contact with it.
> The machines are so different that a cover wouldn't work, so for the
> time being I'll make do with signing I guess and try to smile if asked
> for a driving licence again!
>
> On 14/02/07, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Hi Emma.
>>
>> Some of this is about confidence and strategy and I suppose some of it
>> relates to trust.
>>
>> I do get out and about a lot because of work and I will buy things in the
>> shops.
>>
>> If we leave aside your alergy to certain kinds of rubber and your
>> difficulty
>> feeling the number 5 I can suggest possible options but these 2 issues
>> alone
>> are in reality perhaps the 2 most important.
>>
>> When I use Chip and Pin, I hand the card to the shop assistant to put in
>> the
>> machine.  The assistant does all the necessary button pressing and tells
>> me
>> when to enter the pin.  there is a gap between the assistant actually
>> putting in the card and pressing any buttons and me being required to
>> enter
>> the pin.  During this time I examine the keypad.  There is almost always 
>> a
>> dot on the 5 and the enter key is almost always bottom right and often it
>> has either a circle or a straight line on it.  If there is not a button 
>> on
>> the 5 I get the assistant to show me where the button is.
>>
>> I have not been in many shops where the amount of english spoken by the
>> counter staff is so poor that this information cannot be communicated,
>> even
>> in London.
>>
>> I think that I would not like to risk pressing certain kinds of rubber
>> however if I had a phobia of them or if it caused me to have a rash or
>> something.
>>
>> How you get round the alergy problem though is an interesting issue.  If
>> the
>> pads were the same shape and size you could have a cover that goes over
>> the
>> pad I suppose.  Are there some materials that have a tendancy to cause
>> more
>> reactions when touched than others, is rubber or latex one of those
>> materials?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Graham
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Emma Wright" <emmajane9@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:20 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: chip and pin, cash machines and the likeRe: Re:
>> COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING BY POST
>>
>>
>> Graham,
>>
>> I can use my local cash machine as my fianc=E9 has shown me how to do
>> it, however, I having tried it I have four problems with chip and pin.
>>  1) Each machine is different and it is very hard to work out where to
>> put the card e.g top, bottom, side, which way around. ) Each machine
>> goes through a different order of what you need to do, some you need
>> to press enter to confirm an amount, then enter your pin, some you
>> enter your pin only.  And you often have to wait while it is
>> processing without knowing when the machine is ready for you to press
>> the next button. 3) The buttons do not have any audio feedback (unlike
>> my local cashpoint) so you can't be sure if they have been pressed
>> hard enough, or at all.  4) Some of the machines have buttons which
>> are made of latex, which I am allergic to and avoid at all costs!  The
>> former three could have been addressed by making machines universally
>> similar (i.e. the card always goes in the bottom of the machine with
>> the chip - which you can feel - towards you and facing up), having the
>> software universal so you always get asked the same questions (or of
>> course it could speak what it wants you to enter but that isn't ever
>> going to happen) and having the buttons beep when you press them.
>> It's a shame it didn't happen.
>>
>> I can't use the paying in machine in my local branch either as the
>> numbers are a flat panel with pictures rather than being individually
>> raised buttons.  Again, poor design.
>>
>> It doesn't help that I don't have great feeling in my fingers and
>> often can't feel the raised dot of the 5.
>>
>> See I'm stuffed!
>>
>> Emma
>>
>> On 14/02/07, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > Hi emma.
>> >
>> > Could I ask why you can't use chip and pin?  Is it due to physical
>> > reason=
>> s
>> > such as poor feeling in your hands or no hands at all or is it just a
>> > cas=
>> e
>> > of never having been shown?
>> >
>> > I asked this because I met a visually impaired person through work
>> > recent=
>> ly
>> > who could not use chip an pin technology for no good reason than not
>> > bein=
>> g
>> > shown.
>> >
>> > To see what would happen, I tried an experiment.  I had to pay money
>> > into
>> > the natwest recently by cheque and while doing this I asked the
>> > assistant
>> > about this and was told that you just used the number pad though all 
>> > are
>> > slightly different.  This was probably the assistant just trying to use
>> > h=
>> er
>> > own initiative.  From my experience she is partly right though buttons
>> > ar=
>> e
>> > generally in the same places.  I find that enter is usually bottom 
>> > right
>> > =
>> and
>> > there is generally a dot or feelable marker on 5.
>> >
>> > If for whatever reason you cannot physically use your hands to access
>> > the
>> > buttons, is there allowance made in shops for you to sign instead?
>> >
>> > Using chip and pin or using your local cash point machine independently
>> > i=
>> s
>> > something rehab officers could help all of us to do, but I suppose they
>> > a=
>> re
>> > often stretched and involved with giving people the confidence to
>> > perform
>> > more basic tasks such as preparing food to eat etc, which are all
>> > particularly important to people who are losing or have just lost their
>> > sight. other things tend to get just left by the wayside because of 
>> > lack
>> > =
>> of
>> > time and personell I suppose.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Graham
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Emma Wright" <emmajane9@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 2:41 PM
>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: COUNCIL POLICY TO WAIVE SIGNATURE WHEN VOTING
>> > BY
>> > POST
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree with that, I Have to sign my back card so why not a form for
>> > the council? However, I do worry as I know my signature varies a lot
>> > and its never been queried, even though I can't use chip and pin.  I
>> > guess they see the white stick and realise I might have trouble - I
>> > just hope that if my card gets stolen it isn't by someone else who
>> > looks similarly vulnerable!
>> >
>> > Emma
>> >
>> > On 14/02/07, Carol Pearson <carol.pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > Hi all,
>> > >
>> > > We've recently completed forms, together with our signatures, as our
>> > > Council
>> > > wished to introduce new regulations regarding postal voting.  They
>> > > stat=
>> e
>> > > that they wished to know if our signature differed each time and 
>> > > that,
>> > > =
>> if
>> > > so, an exemption from signing may be in order.
>> > >
>> > > After somewhat of an uphill route (with all the running on our part),
>> > > w=
>> e
>> > > have established that they have looked at our signatures and decided
>> > > to
>> > > send
>> > > us Waiver Forms.
>> > >
>> > > I am really just seeking views of others on list as to whether you
>> > > feel
>> > > it's
>> > > best to have your own signature (which friends are sure cannot be
>> > > reproduced) or to have such a "waiver" so that no signature is
>> > > required=
>> .
>> > >
>> > > I rather feel, after all, that if banks accept our signatures and
>> > > don't
>> > > make
>> > > a fuss, the Council should do likewise.
>> > >
>> > > Any comments are welcome - on or off list.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks.
>> > >
>> > > --
>
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