Okay, since my last response did come through, I am concluding that my earlier efforts were obstructed because of some block placed on the thread to which I was responding. Given that, I'll place my response to that earlier thread here, while changing the header above! Meaning, Nonsense and Verifiability Just to put my two sense in here: To hold a view that something is nonsense a la Wittgenstein is not to share a commitment to the same implications of that claim as the logical postivists (including Carnap) held. That's a mistake many critics of Wittgentein make and it requires a response (whatever else is going on in this debate). As is well known, Wittgenstein did not subscribe to, or endorse, the logical positivist position, including their claim for the verifiability principle as THE criterion of meaningfulness (for a statement), i.e., that it is not, therefore, nonsense. While the early (Tractarian) Wittgenstein often seems in sympathy with that view, his own statements in the shadow of his work at the time (the Tractatus) suggests he did not embrace it and that it is therefore a misreading of the Tractatus to take it as a logical positivist manifesto (as Carnap and others in the Vienna Circle apparently did at one time). But the early Wittgenstein had made some (later) admitted errors in his formulations in the Tractatus and his later work reflects his efforts to clarify, understand and refine those original insights (as he, himself, stated in the preface to his posthumously published Philosophical Investigations). In that work, and in his later teaching (as seen in the extensive notes we have from that period), Wittgenstein laid out a way of understanding the distinction between a term's being meaningful or meaningless which clearly moves away from the bifuctated logical positivist view that saw the verification principle as the one and only standard for what may have meaning. THAT principle, of course, was the source of logical positivism's own demise as Walter rightly noted. Wittgenstein's earlier view seemed to hold that what was "nonsense" (in the sense of being without sense) included under its conceptual umbrella many things that had a kind of significance (and therefore a more rarified sense?) in some larger, deeper way than could simply be demonstrated by suceptibility to verification. Thus: his notion that what the Tractatus was really about were all the things he hadn't explicitly stated! Thus, too, his notion of "showing," i.e., the claim that some things could be shown but not said! This aspect of the Tractatus has a very mystical feel to it and so attracts many who are drawn to mystery. Mystics and religious ecstatics have long been attracted to the idea of a truth beyond the ordinary truths of our existence, of a greater, deeper truth, an unsayable truth that must simply be known or felt and cannot be expressed (and so conveyed to others in mere words). The Tractarian Wittgenstein, in writing of the distinction between what has meaning and what does not, touched this nerve in many -- and, perhaps, in himself as well. In spelling out the way it seemed to him language worked (his picture theory of language), he was attempting to delineate boundaries between sense and non-sense and using this exercise as a "showing", that is, as a way of finally delineating the borders and, by so doing, to show or point us to what was necessarily left out: What could be pointed at but not said. I think the later Wittgenstein was increasingly unhappy with his effort though and realized he was missing something, that a mystical explanation was no explanation at all. And so, on returning to philosophy, he pursued in fits and starts, a way of explaining his earlier insight more satisfactorily. What he arrived at, as seen in the Investigations, was the notion of language as behavior rather than as an agglomeration of pictures and, in that context, he developed his notion of language games (the many interlocking activities we perform with language) and of meaning as use (the way in which a word is deployed in any given language game). Thus what had seemed to the logical positivists to be either sense or nonsense, corresponding to whether a term or claim was verifable or not, became, in Wittgenstein's mature philosophy, a function of whether a given term or claim fulfilled the role assigned it in the particular language game in which it was employed. This does not deny that there is a language game (or games) engaged in verification activity, too (or falsification if we want to adopt the Popperian approach). It only points out that that is not the ONLY language game that constitutes language. Thus, what had been for the early Wittgenstein purely a matter of showing, became for the later thinker, a matter of doing. Of course, there is still a role for showing because rules (a fundamental aspect of games, language or otherwise) are revealed by observing their application. Many of the things we do with language thus involve showing. But the idea that the truth behind the superficial truths of empirical experience or logic is shown by some kind of direct experience of it, either through following along with Wittgenstein's carefully constructed edifice in the Tractatus, in order to finally cast it aside, or in some more mystical fashion (meditation, mystic practice, sudden experience qua enlightenment, etc.) which resonates sympathetically for many with the work of the early Wittgenstein, is no longer seen to be necessary. The later Wittgenstein came to an understanding that it is language, itself, that lies at the core of much of the confusion we have, including the philosophical kind. Not understanding the role or particular workings of different aspects of our language, in which we are embedded, we often miss the forest for the linguistic trees (words and phrases) that surround us. So Sean's claim that it is "not Carnapian" to hold that many traditional philosophical claims (such as whether we have or don't have "free-will") are nonsense, that they are neither true nor false because of their failure to fit the demands of the verifiability principle, is correct. Wittgenstein did not, in his later years, adhere to one language paradigm only, as exemplified by the verifiability principle. His point was that there are many standards of meaning for words, depending on the uses to which they are being put (how they are used in any given language game). Sean's point, as I understand it at least, appears to be that the term "free-will" has no real application in any of our ordinary language games and so finds its sole meaning, such as it is, in the rarified atmosphere of traditional philosophy. But that kind of "meaning," divorced from any of our actual usages (again an important Wittgensteinian insight) is adrift from its appropriate moorings. One of Wittgenstein's important points was that we had to be alert to confusions that arise when we permit language to go "on holiday", i.e., when we lose sight of the real meanings of our terms in favor of various imagined meanings in philosophy which may have no real affect or application in the world. I think that is the meaninglessness Sean is pointing out, not the failure to be verifiable. (See my comments nearby about how "free" is used in many ways although none equate to what is meant when it is included in the term "free-will", a use that seems to be without real application because it is so far divorced from any real world implications.) As to Walter's likening of Wittgenstein's insight about meaning to the logical positivists' reliance on the verifiability principle, I would point out that claims about language being gamelike, or meaning being a function of use, play the same role in the later Wittgenstein's thinking that the verifiability principle played for Carnap and his fellow logical positivists. And yet there remains a critical difference. Logical positivism as a philosophical system or school was seen to collapse when people realized that the principle which was its cornerstone did not, itself, meet the criterion it had established for meaningfulness. Thus, logical positivism was itself seen to be without meaning based on its own standard, a logically untenable position. But Wittgenstein, who early on saw this (if he did not quite articulate it) in his rejection of logical positivism, came to see that a different explanation for being meaningful was available, one that did not oblige us to cast science aside but which still allowed into the tent all sorts of other ways of thinking, i.e., he came to see that words took their meanings in different ways in different contexts. This does not reject the scientific standard of verifiability. It merely allows us to see, and grant, meaning in a myriad of other ways. And unlike the verifiability principle, whose meaningfulness (and therefore its capacity to serve as a standard of meaning for other propositions), the notions of language games and of meaning as use do not depend on meeting their own criterion or standard because they are not, themselves, criteria of meaning but only explanations for how criteria of meaning occur. What determines their truth or falsity is the degree to which they work as explanations of how language (and meaning within language) work. The verifiability principle failed its own test because it posited itself as the sole criterion and then could not itself pass. On the other hand, as explanations, the notions of language games and meaning as use only have to be shown to be good explanations of how standards of meaningfulness occur. That is, they have to provide sufficient explanatory power to adequately account for other aspects of the phenomenon they are directed at, language. There is nothing Carnapian (in the sense of logical positivism) to be seen in any of this. SWM --- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "walto" <wittrsamr@...> wrote: <snip> > > I stand by everything I've said. To wit: > > Your remark that discourses on freedom of the will is nonsense is indeed > Carnapian . . . <snip> > W >