[C] [Wittrs] Re: Oh! So It's Common Ground You Want?
- From: "SWM" <SWMirsky@xxxxxxx>
- To: wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 23:07:03 -0000
As you can see, you've really piqued my curiosity here Joe. Since you seem to
be otherwise engaged or reluctant to respond, I have taken the liberty of doing
a quick Internet search and picked up a few entries on this issue:
http://www.gmilburn.ca/2009/06/15/the-mystics-and-realists-of-quantum-physics/
"The interesting conclusion arises when we consider the 'real' interpretation
of these mathematical operators. While we may say that an scientific instrument
has caused wave function collapse, we run into the problem that no physical
system (and a scientific instrument is a physical system completely described
by quantum mechanics) can cause wave function collapse. We can describe the
entire ensemble perfectly as a Hilbert space. But we do not experience this
Hilbert space ? we measure and experience only finite values.
"The conclusion von Neumann reached is that consciousness, whatever it is,
appears to be the only thing in physics that can ultimately cause this collapse
or observation. This does not mean that consciousness is 'required' for the
universe to work, but that wave function collapse appears to be caused by
consciousness and we observe only a tiny slice. We are therefore an 'abstract
ego' acting as a measurement device on the infinite values of true reality."
[I want to note that nothing as per the above says that consciousness cannot be
something that arises from what is physical as you seem to have presented it
(correct me if I've got you wrong). It only says that consciousness, whatever
it is, introduces the surprising mathematical phenomenon that von Neumann
describes as "collapsing the wave function." On this view alone, nothing is
implied about the derivation of consciousness, therefore we are not obligated
to conclude that consciousness must be outside of the physical universe in the
sense that it cannot be a function of some aspect(s) of physics! Or am I
missing something? Below is a bit more that I found which seemed relevant and
interesting. -- SWM]
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T2K-4FVH4K0-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1148575092&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f7196308b36c14d030b095a5fabc409f
"An analysis has been performed of the theories and postulates advanced by von
Neumann, London and Bauer, and Wigner, concerning the role that consciousness
might play in the collapse of the wave function, which has become known as the
measurement problem. This reveals that an error may have been made by them in
the area of biology and its interface with quantum mechanics when they called
for the reduction of any superposition states in the brain through the mind or
consciousness. Many years later Wigner changed his mind to reflect a simpler
and more realistic objective position which appears to offer a way to resolve
this issue. The argument is therefore made that the wave function of any
superposed photon state or states is always objectively and stochastically
changed within the complex architecture of the eye in a continuous linear
process initially for most of the superposed photons, followed by a
discontinuous nonlinear collapse process later for any remaining superposed
photons, thereby guaranteeing that only final, measured information is
presented to the brain, mind or consciousness. An experiment to be conducted in
the near future may enable us to simultaneously resolve the measurement problem
and also determine if the linear nature of quantum mechanics is violated by the
perceptual process."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse
"In quantum mechanics, wave function collapse (also called collapse of the
state vector or reduction of the wave packet) is the process by which a wave
function, initially in a superposition of different eigenstates, appears to
reduce to a single one of the states after interaction with an observer. In
simplified terms, it is the condensation of physical possibilities into a
single occurrence, as seen by an observer. It is one of two processes by which
quantum systems evolve in time according to the laws of quantum mechanics as
presented by John von Neumann.[1] The reality of wave function collapse has
always been debated, i.e., whether it is a fundamental physical phenomenon in
its own right or just an epiphenomenon of another process, such as quantum
decoherence.[2] In recent decades the quantum decoherence view has gained
popularity. Collapse may be understood as a change in conditional
probabilities."
[If you can offer some answers to the questions I've posed on several nearby
posts, Joe, perhaps we can get to something like the bottom of this assertion
you have introduced into the present discussion. Thanks. -- SWM]
=========================================
Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/
Other related posts:
- » [C] [Wittrs] Re: Oh! So It's Common Ground You Want? - SWM
