[TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
- From: Key David <David.Key@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:41:28 +0100
If you need the code to do this on a MTC you can get it here
http://lightnup.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40.0
You will have to adapt it to suit your own sites, any problems let me know.
Regards
David Key
-----Original Message-----
From: Key David [mailto:David.Key@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 23 August 2006 09:48
To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
Dave
Could you email me a copy to have a look at as it would save me a job.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kinnaird, Dave [mailto:D.Kinnaird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 23 August 2006 09:42
To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
We have created some special conditioning that does this (on blue
controllers) so that if the push button is pushed but there is no demand
seen by the kerb side then it can be assumed that there could be a problem
with the detector as the normal course of action would be that the
controller would see a demand form the kerbside first and then a demand from
the bush button. When this occurs the ped demand is latched for one cycle.
If this occurs more than 10 times in a 24hour period then a DFM fault is
raised as this suggests there is a problem. Dave
Contact:
David Kinnaird
BEng, CEng MIEE
Principal Engineer
Telematics
Cardiff Council
Tel 02920 873321
Fax 02920 873328
-----Original Message-----
From: tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Key David
Sent: 23 August 2006 09:34
To: 'tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
I think that the best practice guide is really suggesting that if a demand
is detected from the PB and whilst nothing is registering on the KVD assume
it is faulty and put in a latched demand rather than an unlatched one.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Jones [mailto:peter.jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 23 August 2006 09:23
To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
I'm rather puzzled over the best practice guide. If a demand must be
accepted by the push button alone......why bother with kerbside detection at
all? Unless it simply means that following the DFM time out, the kerbside
goes PD, as normal.
In these days of increasing congestion, we cannot always afford the luxury
of bringing in the ped stage when no-one is waiting to cross - having
already managed to cross for example. This means that whatever kerbside
detection is used must be reliable and the existing overheads are
notoriously UNreliable. Between failing and becoming PD, there is a
considerable time scale where pedestrians simply would not get their green
man and this is a regular occurrence. If this happens at school out time,
multiply the danger several fold!
The X-Flo detector pad is remarkable in its simplicity - operating in
exactly the same way as 'D' loops do with a metal plate moving in relation
to a coil. They are proving to be extremely reliable and observation here
shows that people very quickly learn to use them.
Reliable detectors mean reduced congestion AND improved safety for
pedestrians. And while standards must be accepted, my concern is more for
the road user. Standards have an annoying habit of taking years to be
decided, in the mean time, pedestrians need to remain safe and congestion
managed. If kerbside detection is to be used, it must be reliable and must
only insert a demand 'if' someone is actually waiting to cross.
With regards to positioning, if one person wishes to cross, they tend to
stand near the pole. If more than one person is waiting, it is fairly normal
that at least one of them will stand near the pole. The entire crossing does
not need to be covered with these pads. Also, the position adopted in Sefton
follows discussions with two groups; a group of non- visually impaired
people responsible for disability standards - who were more concerned with
the shade of pink used, and a group of visually impaired and people with
other disabilities - such as wheel chair users. I arranged to have a pad
taken around to these groups for them to make their own judgements, all were
very happy for me to trial them and were most grateful for being asked to
comment.
The visually impaired are taught to find the edge of the kerb with their
cane and stand approximately 150mm back - hence the positioning of the pads.
They even detect the weight of a single wheel on the corner of a child's
buggy...AND cater for up to 7.5 tonnes.
The question is; which is more important, continuing with something that
does not work reliably, or fitting something that works, is cheaper and
safer to maintain and helps reduce congestion too? If colour and measurement
are more important than people then maybe all kerbside detection should be
removed and we treat them similar to pelicans...and just accept the extra
congestion.
Peter Jones
Peter Jones
Principal Traffic Systems Engineer
Phone: +44 (0) 151 934 4254
Fax: +44 (0) 151 922 4514
Sefton MBC - UTC
7th Floor
Balliol House
Balliol Road
Bootle
L20 3NJ
>>> "Brian Daveney" <b.daveney@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 22/08/06 17:44 >>>
Julian,
From my literature X-FLO was type approved in summer 2004, but if you
contact Kelly Hughes @
Advanced Traffic Supplies Ltd kellyh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.advancedtrafficsupplies.com
or
Gareth Heywood
Sales & Marketing
Techmiracle Ltd.
T: +44 (0) 1954 267707
F: +44 (0) 1954 267708
M: +44 (0) 7977 249188
W: www.techmiracle.com
Kelly Hughes is presenting a paper at the JCT Symposium in September so I am
sure he will field a few questions regarding the pedestrian pads.
The signs helped the sighted pedestrians but I relied on the tactile cones
and placing the pads in easy reach for the unsighted. But there always was
an exception or two, of the sighted kind...
Cheers
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Julian [mailto:Julian.Smith@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 22 August 2006 16:41
To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection ; )
Brian,
From what you suggest they are type approved? Is there paperwork to support
this?
With regard to the additional signing is that a prescribed sign available in
Braille and dual language?
;)
Julian Smith
Traffic Signal Engineer
AmeyMouchel (Area 9)
-----Original Message-----
From: tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Brian Daveney
Sent: 22 August 2006 4:01 pm
To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
Down in Poole, we more or less did the same as Peter did, with using two
pads per crossing point. On a radius kerb line just varied the layout, but
kept them in close proximity to the push button. Did have a few teething
problems with pedestrians not standing on the pads and having the demand
cancelled. But with temporary signs 'For Green Man please stand on pad and
push button' soon alleviated this problem and locals soon realised what was
needed to obtain a demand. Otherwise the X-FLO pads proved very affective
and I will be installing them at a number of sites within the Borough.
Thanks
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Julian [mailto:Julian.Smith@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 22 August 2006 15:14
To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [TCUG] Re: Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
Peter,
With the expanding use of nearsided signals, I'm keen to find out a bit more
info. Do X-Flow have a webpage and are these detector approved to TR2507?
Judging by the photos it would seem that we'd need many units to make up the
2.4x2.0m area required under the specification. Something that might rule
them out on cost compared to overhead detection. Using a couple on each
crossing point may result in pedestrians being unable to insert a demand
without providing some special conditioning allied to the call cancel
facility to cater for conditions where the mats are not occupied but there
being a requirement for a demand.
Julian Smith
Traffic Signal Engineer
AmeyMouchel (Area 9)
-----Original Message-----
From: tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tcug-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Peter Jones
Sent: 22 August 2006 2:21 pm
To: TCUG
Subject: [TCUG] Pedestrian Kerbside Detection
For information.
In light of the on going problems with kerbside detectors, I now have a
total of 24 X-Flo detector pads installed; 16 around one traffic signalled
junction and 8 at two puffin sites. 8 more units are about to be installed
at two new sites within the next month.
So far they have proved very reliable and at a similar cost to an overhead
unit plus installation, they appear to be a very cost effective solution,
even more so due to the reduction in maintenance calls, ladder H&S issues
etc.
For more information about the X-Flo detector pads, please follow the
attached link to Dave Key's brilliant web site, were I have posted some
pictures etc.
http://lightnup.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bbe0588933e959f829816dbdb923
ffda&page=2
Also, the FORUM contains details and some things to look out for during
installation.
Forum topic link: http://lightnup.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
Peter
Peter Jones
Principal Traffic Systems Engineer
Phone: +44 (0) 151 934 4254
Fax: +44 (0) 151 922 4514
Sefton MBC - UTC
7th Floor
Balliol House
Balliol Road
Bootle
L20 3NJ
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