Jeff, Think about your experiment with varying rise times in the frequency=20 domain. Your comment "the TDR and TDT waveforms stabilize at the same level" answers your question. If you look at the time it takes for the waveform to stabilize, and conve= rt that to frequency, you will find that it at a fairly low frequency tha= t the impedance is measured to be the same. With really fast edges and g= ood launches, you can begin to see how impedance varies with frequency. = Actually, an alternate way of viewing risetime degradation due to conduct= or and dielectric losses is as a frequency domain problem, where the impe= dance changes with frequency. Notice that for long lines the impedance pr= ofile continues to rise, due to resistance, which is a component of imped= ance. There are tranisiton regions, which Dr Johnson discusses in his ne= w book, where impedance change is dominated by either RC, LC, skin effect= , or dielectic loss. If you want to see this with some precision, you can use your VNA and pla= ce it in delay measurement mode. You'll need a very good launch and some= well known traces with very good impedance control, and nothing nearby t= hat will resonate. You'll also need to find a way to de-embed so that th= e reference plane is extremely close to the trace. Then you can plot del= ay vs. frequency. After having done this, you can convert delay to Er(ef= fective). This includes the affect of conductor loss and finite field pe= netration into the conductor. You will see that at low frequencies Er(ef= fective) is much higher than at high frequencies. And even from 1 GHz to = 10 GHz there are some changes in the 5% range. This is directly related = to field penetration into conductors which causes the internal inductance= to vary with frequency. It turns out that the resistance of a trace and = the inductance are related, and have to be for the system to be causal. Now, take the case of semiconductors. The resistance of the lines are mu= ch higher, which causes much higher losses and much higher internal induc= tance with respect to frequency than copper traces on FR-4. This directl= y relates to increased change in impedance across what we might consider = "our" normal operating region of 1 GHz to 10 GHz. What has happened is t= hat the increased trace loss has shifted the crossover boundary between t= he low, mid and high frequency regions of the transmission line. In addi= tion, there is another mode that has to be considered at high freqencies = for silicon, known as the slow-wave mode. Because silicon is a semi-cond= uctor, and the conductance of the material is dependent upon the doping l= evel of the substrate, our normal "approximations" for transmission lines= fall apart. The main assumption that is in every textbook on the subjec= t is that losses are negligible. As soon as they are not, we get into se= cond and third order effects. =20 In the case of silicon, one of those effects is the slow-wave mode, where= for inductance purposes, the physical metal structures form the boundari= es of the loop. That is, the magnetic field is contained and control by t= he high conductance metal. But, the capacitance is contained by the sili= con, and the electric field along with the finite conductivity of the sub= strate can actually set up a "virtual plane" within the silicon, that doe= s not penetrate the full depth of the material. In other words, conductan= ce shunts out the stored electric field. In this way, the electric and ma= gnetic fields decouple, and capacitance goes way, way up. Until the slow = wave transition frequency, quasi-TEM propagation exists and the waves tra= vel at near constant velocity across frequency (with some corrections due= to conductor losses and internal inductance). But once we cross the slo= w-wave boundary, it is as if the brakes were put on. I believe Dr. Ed Sa= yre, III of NESA has quite a bit of expertise in this area. best regards, scott --=20 Scott McMorrow Electromagnetic Field Wrangler Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 2926 SE Yamhill St. Portland, OR 97214 (503) 239-5536 http://www.teraspeed.com Loyer, Jeff wrote: >Hi Andrew, >I would like some help understanding the difference between board traces= =3D >and "chip lines". My experience has been that I can TDR a trace using a= =3D >35ps risetime, or through 100 and 400ps filters, and measure the same Z0= =3D >for that trace. This would seem to be backed up by the fact that there = =3D >is no compensation made when measuring traces with different TDRs, =3D >regardless of their risetime. > >I just confirmed that again, measuring the same 3" microstrip trace with= =3D >no filter, and 100ps and 400ps filters, and finding the TDR and TDT =3D >waveforms stabilize at the same level, regardless of the risetime. Of =3D= >course, there's significant impact to the risetime of the TDT, but the =3D= >Z0 of the trace (as indicated by the DC level of the TDR trace) remains = =3D >constant. > >This implies to me that the Z0 of the trace is constant for 10GHz , =3D >3.5GHz, or 875MHz (35ps, 100ps, 400ps risetimes, respectively). > >My experience with VNA seems to substantiate this - S11 typically =3D >remains fairly constant (other than resonances at lambda/4, etc.) while = =3D >S21 varies with frequency due to loss effects. > >Is there something else I'm missing? > >Jeff Loyer > >-----Original Message----- >From: andrew.c.byers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >[mailto:andrew.c.byers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:05 PM >To: jonpowell@xxxxxxxxxxxx; kbagga31@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: impedance relation with frequency... > > >Concerning Zo relation with frequency: > >Once again, depends where you live. On boards, typically the >frequency-dependent impedance change starts leveling out at much lower >frequencies. Essentially you are approaching the sqrt(L/C) impedance, >because your omega*L overwhelms your R. *Usually* by 1MHz your Zo curve = =3D >is >flat. But if you are modeling chip lines, your R value for the line =3D >might be >comparable (or greater) than omega*L up to a couple GHz or so. Then you >cannot ignore this frequency dependent behavior. I have seen a typical =3D= >line >on chip go from about Zo=3D3D100ohms @100MHz, to Zo=3D3D63ohms @1GHz, to= =3D >Zo=3D3D55ohms >@10GHz. Measurement, simulation, theory, literature, and gut feel all =3D= >back >this up.=3D20 > >So the bottom line (as it always is in the world of interconnect =3D >modeling) >is it depends on how high you go in frequency, the dimensions of line =3D= >you >are using, and if you are designing in a narrow band or a wide band. >HOWEVER, as Jon pointed out, you can often see greater variations due to= >coupling from nearby traces. Plus you have to remember that impedance >control is an issue too - usually +/- 10% is as good as it gets for >run-of-the-mill PCBs out there (but money talks).=3D20 > >To get a feel for the numbers I got above, you can use a 2D field solver= >that handles the frequency dependent behavior of R and L (ansoft =3D >spicelink >or some other flavor). Or you can dig up equations and plug them into a >matlab or mathcad. Calculate your R and L and C (usually G is =3D >non-existant >or insignificant...) and crunch away. > >salud, >Andy Byers > > =3D20 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jon Powell [mailto:jonpowell@xxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20 >Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:09 AM >To: kbagga31@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: impedance relation with frequency... > > >Karen, >It is my feeling that the frequency related impedance changes on a =3D >signal >will be second order considerations compared to the impedance changes =3D= >caused >by crosstalk from neighboring wires. These effects can be shown with =3D= >most >good SI engines. Intel has often recommended (for instance) calculating = =3D >the >effective impedance when the coupled wires on either side of the target = =3D >wire >switch simultaneously with the target wire in both the same direction =3D= >(all >going high and low) and opposite (target going high and low and coupled >going low and high). > >hope this helps (and if I am wrong, I am sure someone will scream at me = =3D >so >wait a couple of minutes). > >regards, >jon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of karan bagga >Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 2:24 AM >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [SI-LIST] impedance relation with frequency... > > >Hi > >>From the telegraphic equations on Transmision lines it seems the =3D >impedance >of the Trace varies with frequency. > >In my design specifications it is specified that my trace should be on =3D= >(25 >+/- 10%) Ohms. >How will I do it ? How will I do these kind of analysis? > >The frequency of the signal is high and also the rise time is =3D >significantly >low. >Will FFT be of some help here ? > >Regards >Karan. > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List archives are viewable at: =3D20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=3D20 >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =3D20 >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List archives are viewable at: =3D20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=3D20 >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =3D20 > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List archives are viewable at: =20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=20 >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =20 > > =20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu