[SI-LIST] Re: [SPAM] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
- From: Jerzy Lelusz <jerry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:12:11 +0100
From another point of view - one of my friends works in a similar busine=
ss.
They're reverse engineering chips.
Legal, illegal? There was a very long dispute with lawyers... conclusion=20
- legal.
The only task given by various customers - to check if competitors' chips
contains something copyrighted by another company ;-)
Jerzy Lelusz
esayre@xxxxxxxx wrote:
> JaMi Smith:
>
> Excellent suggestions for protecting PCB design files.
>
> ed
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Dr. Edward P. Sayre, P. E.
> North East Systems Associates, Inc.
> 1 South Avenue, 3rd Floor
> Natick, MA 01760
> [T] 508-652-0088
> [F] 508-652-0083
>
>
> =20
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: [SPAM] [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>> From: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: Fri, May 19, 2006 11:53 am
>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available,=
even
>> from the board house . . .
>> I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their door=
s,
>> without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data.
>>
>> I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less t=
han 20
>> components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same boards for o=
ver 25
>> years, from the same board house, that went out of business before he =
could
>> make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand taped artwork, w=
here
>> all that he could lay his hands on was film - there never were Gerbers=
. The
>> board house closed it's doors, and I re-did the board for him from scr=
atch,
>> using all of the original dimensions and physical part locations, so t=
hat it
>> would fit into his case, which he had also been re-ording from someone=
else
>> for over 25 years, and made him a CD ROM with all the necessary files,=
and
>> even submitted it electronically to several other board houses for him=
, so
>> that he could continue his legitimate business selling his original de=
sign
>> as he has been doing for over 25 years.
>>
>> These things really do happen.
>>
>> On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from=
me
>> and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of reven=
ue for
>> him, not to mention other problems.
>>
>> Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable, al=
though
>> very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps, especially if the "p=
irate"
>> doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the "p=
irate"
>> did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of th=
e
>> layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for copyri=
te
>> violation, which he did.
>>
>> There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where you m=
ay be
>> legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes belly=
up
>> and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying that modul=
e
>> anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and who is not eve=
n
>> there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his module, or simply say=
s "go
>> ahead and make your own". This too actually happens, more often than o=
ne
>> would expect, especially in todays economy.
>>
>> I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago, wh=
ere
>> they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic Data Exc=
hange.
>> I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the subject o=
f
>> Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File Forma=
t",
>> should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along with Non
>> Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and specifically for
>> Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that see=
med to
>> agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the subject, so it =
"fell
>> by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX) "emailing list" for a wh=
ile,
>> but was conveinently dropped in due course.
>>
>> I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start th=
inking
>> about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other Priprietary Rig=
hts,
>> when it comes to their Designs, and specifically with respect to thing=
s such
>> as "Gerber Files", and other types of files containing "Design Data", =
and
>> specifically think about including "Statements" regarding such "Files"
>> within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically w=
ithin
>> other documents such as a Purchase Order..
>>
>> Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the stan=
dard
>> "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we used for a=
ll of
>> our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in small print in =
one of
>> the corners of each drawing. Many times this has been carried over to
>> "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has this ever been done wi=
th
>> actual "files" themselves. I would recommend that all in this "forum" =
give a
>> little thought to what they can do within their respective companies, =
to
>> protect themselves. I would minimumally recommend including a text fil=
e in
>> your standard "zipped" manufacturing file package that you send to the=
board
>> house or assembly house, stating something to the effect that "All fil=
es
>> contained herein are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., own=
er of
>> said files, and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and su=
ch,
>> specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives, bla=
h blah
>> blah, etc., etc., etc., ... and that such files shall remain the
>> Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe Co., .=
..
>>
>> Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your compan=
y and
>> /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain owner=
ship
>> of your own intellectual property, in the event that you need to.
>>
>> This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore", =
for
>> "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific count=
ries
>> here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am sure that eve=
ryone
>> has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing the "off-shor=
e
>> manufacturing", ended up selling the product themselves. This too has =
really
>> happened.
>>
>> If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your=
own
>> "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation.
>>
>> And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very appropr=
iate
>> topic of conversation for this forum.
>>
>> Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal=
with,
>> what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have actually
>> encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do "reverse
>> engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist.
>>
>> And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes, multilaye=
red
>> boards can in fact be "reverse engineered".
>>
>> JaMi Smith
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>>
>>
>> Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not
>> available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was
>> fabricated. The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files use=
d.
>>
>> Scott McMorrow
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> 121 North River Drive
>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>
>> http://www.teraspeed.com
>>
>> Teraspeed=AE is the registered service mark of
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> Kedar P Apte wrote:
>> =20
>>> Hi Steve,
>>> I was expecting this Question - never mind
>>> I am not in that business -
>>> I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to understan=
d.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kedar
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM
>>> To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else'
>>> design? Who helps a thief?
>>>
>>> If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's
>>> corporate bank account numbers and access codes? I think there are
>>> many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts
>>> =20
>> payable.
>> =20
>>> Steve.
>>> At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote:
>>>
>>> =20
>>>> Hi All Gurus,
>>>> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi Layer=
ed
>>>> =20
>> PCB.
>> =20
>>>> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get gerbers/netli=
st
>>>> =20
>> out
>> =20
>>>> of a multilayered PCB.
>>>>
>>>> May be by x-ray method or any other way.
>>>>
>>>> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out wit=
h
>>>> =20
>> it's
>> =20
>>>> schematic.
>>>>
>>>> I need information about how to do this task.
>>>>
>>>> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Kedar
>>>>
>>>> http://www.patni.com
>>>> World-Wide Partnerships. World-Class Solutions.
>>>> ____________________________________________________________________=
_
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--=20
Jerzy Lelusz
Senior Electronics Engineer
Geola Technologies Ltd
Sussex Innovation Centre
Science Park Square
BN1 9SB Falmer
United Kingdom
Tel: +447868649868
Fax: +441273704477
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