From what I recall, layout copyright protection is denoted by an "M" inside a circle. Usually the date and the company name next to the circle-M if it fits (which it should on a PCB, but not always on a chip). I imagine the datafiles copyright notification is the standard circle-C. -- Daniel (not a lawyer) > From: "Nagel Michael-amn029" <Michael.Nagel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >=20 > Good point - the copyright on PCB artwork. >=20 > I agree that these situations may exist, but as Kedar did not=3D20 > elaborate much on this, doubts are allowed. >=20 > When the company developing the board(s) goes out of business, > they leave a larger trace behind than many people imagine. > The PCB manufacturer they use has the Gerber files and I doubt that=3D20 > they disappear immediately when the originator of these files > goes out of business. >=20 > A PCB manufacturer will not hand out the data to another company > except when the originator agrees. This is merely a question of ethics, > when customers get to know this, the PCB manufacturer is out of > business.=3D20 >=20 > Once we are in the "middle ground" where the original manufacturer does > not > exist anymore, access to this data (which might still be in one of the > back-ups) > can be discussed. >=20 > Reverse Engineering - even with good reason - has always a bad taste, > but=3D20 > that's my very personal view. >=20 > Michael Nagel >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of JaMi Smith > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 8:53 PM > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Cc: JaMi Smith > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering >=20 > It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available, > even from the board house . . . > I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their doors, > without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data. >=20 > I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less > than 20 components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same boards > for over 25 years, from the same board house, that went out of business > before he could make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand > taped artwork, where all that he could lay his hands on was film - there > never were Gerbers. The board house closed it's doors, and I re-did the > board for him from scratch, using all of the original dimensions and > physical part locations, so that it would fit into his case, which he > had also been re-ording from someone else for over 25 years, and made > him a CD ROM with all the necessary files, and even submitted it > electronically to several other board houses for him, so that he could > continue his legitimate business selling his original design as he has > been doing for over 25 years. >=20 > These things really do happen. >=20 > On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from > me and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of > revenue for him, not to mention other problems. >=20 > Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable, > although very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps, especially if > the "pirate" > doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the > "pirate" > did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of the > layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for copyrite > violation, which he did. >=20 > There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where you may > be legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes > belly up and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying > that module anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and who > is not even there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his module, or > simply says "go ahead and make your own". This too actually happens, > more often than one would expect, especially in todays economy. >=20 > I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago, > where they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic Data > Exchange. > I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the subject of > Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File > Format", should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along with > Non Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and specifically for > Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that > seemed to agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the > subject, so it "fell by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX) > "emailing list" for a while, but was conveinently dropped in due course. >=20 > I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start > thinking about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other > Priprietary Rights, when it comes to their Designs, and specifically > with respect to things such as "Gerber Files", and other types of files > containing "Design Data", and specifically think about including > "Statements" regarding such "Files" > within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically > within other documents such as a Purchase Order.. >=20 > Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the > standard "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we > used for all of our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in > small print in one of the corners of each drawing. Many times this has > been carried over to "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has > this ever been done with actual "files" themselves. I would recommend > that all in this "forum" give a little thought to what they can do > within their respective companies, to protect themselves. I would > minimumally recommend including a text file in your standard "zipped" > manufacturing file package that you send to the board house or assembly > house, stating something to the effect that "All files contained herein > are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., owner of said files, > and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and such, > specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives, blah > blah blah, etc., etc., etc., ... and that such files shall remain the > Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe Co., ... >=20 > Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your company > and /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain > ownership of your own intellectual property, in the event that you need > to. >=20 > This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore", > for "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific > countries here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am sure > that everyone has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing > the "off-shore manufacturing", ended up selling the product themselves. > This too has really happened. >=20 > If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your > own "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation. >=20 > And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very > appropriate topic of conversation for this forum. >=20 > Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal > with, what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have > actually encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do > "reverse engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist. >=20 > And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes, > multilayered boards can in fact be "reverse engineered". >=20 > JaMi Smith >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering >=20 >=20 > Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not > available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was > fabricated. The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files used. >=20 > Scott McMorrow > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax >=20 > http://www.teraspeed.com >=20 > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC >=20 >=20 >=20 > Kedar P Apte wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > I was expecting this Question - never mind > > I am not in that business - > > I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to > understand. > > > > > > Regards, > > Kedar > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir > > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM > > To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering > > > > > > Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else' > > design? Who helps a thief? > > > > If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's > > corporate bank account numbers and access codes? I think there are > > many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts > payable. > > > > > > Steve. > > At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote: > > > >> Hi All Gurus, > >> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi > Layered > PCB. > >> > >> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get > gerbers/netlist > out > >> of a multilayered PCB. > >> > >> May be by x-ray method or any other way. > >> > >> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out with > it's > >> schematic. > >> > >> I need information about how to do this task. > >> > >> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any.. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Kedar > >> > >> http://www.patni.com > >> World-Wide Partnerships. World-Class Solutions. --=20 ___________________________________________________ Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu