For free, there's Sonnet Lite. There are memory limitations, but if you're clever you can work around them for many problems. www.sonnetsoftware.com -- Mark Randol, RF Evaluation & Application Engineer ON Semiconductor 901 S. Mopac Expressway Barton Oaks IV, Suite 343 Austin, TX 78746 512-329-5640 (voice), 512-329-8151 (FAX) =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joel Brown > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:25 PM > To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Cc: lnima@xxxxxxxxxx; istvan.novak@xxxxxxx; SI-List > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing Signals Between PWB Layers - Part 2 >=20 > Just curious. What is the approximate single user cost of=20 > those products? > Thanks - Joel >=20 >=20 > Scott McMorrow wrote: > > Sigrity Power SI and Ansoft SIWave will both do what you're=20 > looking for. > > Scott McMorrow > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > 121 North River Drive > > Narragansett, RI 02882 > > (401) 284-1827 Business > > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > > > http://www.teraspeed.com > > > > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting=20 > > Group LLC > > > > > > > > Nima Lotfi wrote: > > =20 > >> Istvan, > >> > >> I'm looking for a tool to simulate board resonance. Did you use=20 > >> simulation software to confirm the frequency of modal resonance of=20 > >> the PCB planes? If so can tell me what tool you've used. > >> > >> Thanks,=3D20 > >> ______________________=3D20 > >> Nima Lotfi, P. Eng=3D20 > >> Digital Hardware Design Engineer=3D20 > >> Nortel > >> > >> > >> 758-7786 ESN=3D20 > >> (403) 769-7786 Direct=3D20 > >> (403) 769-5350 Fax=3D20 > >> LNima@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20 > >> > >> > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> On Behalf Of Istvan Novak > >>> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 7:10 AM > >>> To: GStokes@xxxxxxxxx > >>> Cc: SI-List > >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing Signals Between PWB Layers=20 > - Part 2=20 > >>> =3D20 Geoff, Doug, =3D20 This example nicely shows the importance = of=20 > >>> proper power distribution design. > >>> =3D20 > >>> The emission peaks correspond to the modal resonances of the PCB > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> planes. > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> As Doug points out in the article, moving the planes closer would > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> reduce > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> the > >>> emission about proportionally. However, if one wants to=20 > stay with a=20 > >>> four-layer construction, reducing the plane separation is not a=20 > >>> viable solution: > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> it > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> would > >>> either result in an unmanageably thin board, or if we add the > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> tickhness > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> back to > >>> the top/bottom dielectrics, in a dramatically reduced=20 > routing density. > >>> =3D20 > >>> Nearby grounding vias would help, but in practical cases the two > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> planes > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> are at > >>> different DC potentials, so it must be a bypass capacitor rather=20 > >>> than > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> a > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> stitching > >>> via. A single bypass capacitor will do little in the hundreds of=20 > >>> MHz frequency range, even if it serves only one signal. =20 > Also, if we=20 > >>> have wide busses > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> instead > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> of a single > >>> trace, trying to provide a return path locally to all of=20 > the layer=20 > >>> transitions becomes much harder to implement. > >>> =3D20 > >>> A more realistic and straightforward solution is to design the=20 > >>> power-distribution network in such a way that it does not exhibit=20 > >>> large resonances. In multi-layer boards, where we may also have=20 > >>> ground-ground planes creating such cavities, the solution is=20 > >>> stitching vias, but not necessarily near the layer=20 > transitions. We=20 > >>> would just need to make sure that the large resonating cavity is=20 > >>> broken up > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> to > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>> sufficiently > >>> small blocks such that the lowest resonance frequency is safely=20 > >>> above the highest frequency of excitation. > >>> =3D20 > >>> Regards, > >>> =3D20 > >>> Istvan Novak > >>> SUN Microsystems > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> Geoff Stokes wrote: > >>> =3D20 > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >>>> Hi Doug > >>>> > >>>> In this experiment, you appear to have no plane vias adjacent to=20 > >>>> the signal vias. What would happen if a few plane vias=20 > were added=20 > >>>> around the transitions and fairly close by? > >>>> > >>>> Geoff Stokes > >>>> Systems Engineer > >>>> Zetex Semiconductors plc > >>>> Zetex Technology Park > >>>> Chadderton > >>>> Oldham > >>>> OL9 9LL > >>>> UK > >>>> =3D3D20 > >>>> +44-161-622-4857 > >>>> www.zetex.com > >>>> www.zetex.cn > >>>> =3D3D20 > >>>> > >>>> =3D3D20 > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> On Behalf Of Doug Smith > >>>> Sent: 03 May 2006 21:41 > >>>> To: SI-List > >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Routing Signals Between PWB Layers - Part 2 > >>>> > >>>> Hi All, > >>>> > >>>> I have been writing and recording again and have posted part 2 of > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> my=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> article on signals that change layers in a PWB. > >>>> > >>>> Abstract: Printed wiring board, PWB, signal paths must often > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> change=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> layers in a board stackup. Under some conditions this can=20 > >>>> cause=3D3D20 problems. An emissions example is used to=20 > illustrate the > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> conditions=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> where changing layers can cause problems. > >>>> > >>>> The link to the article is the picture of the emissions plot at > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> the=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> bottom of the home page at http://emcesd.com . > >>>> > >>>> There is also an audio discussion of this article on my podcast > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> site:=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> http://emcesd-podcast.com where the direct link to the=20 > article is: > >>>> > >>>> http://emcesd-podcast.com/2006/may/2006-0503.mp3 > >>>> > >>>> Can't download mp3 files? Download the following instead: > >>>> > >>>> http://emcesd-podcast.com/2006/may/2006-0503.dcs > >>>> > >>>> After download, change the extension from .dcs to .mp3 and the > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> file=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> will then be able to play on most computers. Since the last =3D > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> HFNews=3D3D20 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> there have been two new podcasts posted. > >>>> > >>>> Doug > >>>> --=3D3D20 > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> ___ _ Doug Smith > >>>> \ / ) P.O. Box 1457 > >>>> = =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D =20 > Los =3D > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >> Gatos, CA 95031-1457 > >> =20 > >> =20 > >>>> _ / \ / \ _ TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799 > >>>> / /\ \ ] / /\ \ Mobile: 408-858-4528 > >>>> | q-----( ) | o | Email: doug@xxxxxxxxxx > >>>> \ _ / ] \ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> =20 > >>>> =20 > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> To unsubscribe from si-list: > >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject=20 > >>> field =3D20 or to administer your membership from a web page, go = to: > >>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >>> =3D20 > >>> For help: > >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject=20 > field =3D20=20 > >>> List FAQ wiki page is located at: > >>> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >>> =3D20 > >>> List technical documents are available at: > >>> http://www.si-list.org =3D20 List archives are=20 > >>> viewable at: > >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > >>> or at our remote archives: > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> To unsubscribe from si-list: > >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=20 > Subject field > >> > >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >> > >> For help: > >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >> > >> List FAQ wiki page is located at: > >> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >> > >> List technical documents are available at: > >> http://www.si-list.org > >> > >> List archives are viewable at: =20 > >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > >> or at our remote archives: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > >> =20 > >> > >> =20 > >> =20 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=20 > Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > List archives are viewable at: =20 > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > =20 > > > > > > =20 >=20 >=20 > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- > -- Type: text/x-vcard > -- File: joel.vcf >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >=20 > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >=20 > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >=20 > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ >=20 > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org >=20 > List archives are viewable at: =20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu