[SI-LIST] Re: Maximum Frequency for S-parameter Extraction of Board Power Plane

  • From: Rohit MISHRA <rohit.mishra@xxxxxx>
  • To: "si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:26:37 +0800

Guys,

Interesting discussion, Indeed !!

Now in case if we extract power plane s-parameter for package, what would be 
the minimum & maximum frequency ??

As per my understanding :

Minimum frequency = 3 X cut off frequency of board
Maximum Frequency = Knee frequency

Experts comments please.

Rohit




-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:12 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Maximum Frequency for S-parameter Extraction of Board 
Power Plane

I might add that one has to make sure that the S-parameter data
goes down low enough in frequency, preferably to 0 Hz, otherwise
the simulators will have to guess on how to solve for the DC
components of the signal...  Based on the "your guess is as good
as mine" principle your results may vary...

Arpad
==================================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Beal, Weston
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 11:32 AM
To: Rajan Hansa; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Maximum Frequency for S-parameter Extraction of
Board Power Plane

Make sure that you consider not only the maximum frequency. You also
need to make sure that your S-parameter set has enough data points to
correctly model all the resonances in the measured frequency band. If
you have too few data points, and the graph of the S-parameters over
frequency looks choppy or jagged, then the model will probably be
non-causal.

S-parameters are like power tools. A skilled user can get a lot done
with them, but if used carelessly, they can hurt you.

Weston


-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Rajan Hansa
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:44 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Maximum Frequency for S-parameter Extraction of Board
Power Plane

Hello All,


I have got a PCB database of one Ethernet Board and I have to extract
s-parameter for all power plane from voltage regulator to  power pin of
chip package. The Board database includes all decap.



As we know extraction time is directly related with maximum frequency So
while setting maximum frequency for s-parameter extraction, I am bit
confused, I would like to know that do I need to set knee frequency (
Fknee = 0.35/Trise) as maximum frequency OR for board level simulation
we shouldn't care knee frequency.



As per my understanding, package inductance won't allow very high
frequency component (switching current component which depends on Trise
!!) to travel to board from chip so voltage regulator in board will
never see those high switching current so I shouldn't simulate/extract
s-parameter till knee frequency.



What's expert view on this ?



Rgds,

Rajan

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