The S11 plots that I have include the effects of that 0402 pad, which = adds a substantial discontinuity, so wouldn't be indicative of the = launch itself. Jeff Loyer -----Original Message----- From: Perry Qu [mailto:perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:47 AM To: Loyer, Jeff Cc: si-list Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: [Fwd: coax to PCB transition - return loss] Hi, Jeff: Thanks for the info. This is pretty interesting stuff. I guess the void = of ground copper underneath the pin makes a big difference. Hopefully I got = the chance to test it out in a test PCB later. Do you have any S11 plots in frequency domain ? In our configuation, we used an "inverted" microstrip, i.e., ground = copper flood on the surface layer and microstrip trace on an inner layer. Regards Perry "Loyer, Jeff" wrote: > Ray Anderson put the information at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/files/Technical%20Documents/ > under "SMA Launch Structure Info" > > I always went to microstrip. I would think your S11 resonance merely = =3D > indicates a noisy launch. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the = =3D > microstrip launch would be noisier than that for coplanar - the =3D > transition (from SMA connector environment to PCB) is more complex and = =3D > easier to induce discontinuities. > > Jeff Loyer > > -----Original Message----- > From: Perry Qu [mailto:perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:29 AM > To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Loyer, Jeff > Cc: si-list > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: [Fwd: coax to PCB transition - return loss] > > Scott, Jeff: > > Thanks for your info. It's not clear to me what type of transmission = =3D > line you > used on PCB, microstrip or coplannar waveguide ? Jeff, can you send me = =3D > the > slides you are talking about ? > > I re-examined some of our measured data for various coax-to-PCB =3D > interface and it > appears that whenever microstrip is used, I see some resonance in S11 = =3D > frequency > domain plot (10 - 240 MHz). This resonance basically screw up my = return =3D > loss out > of -15 dB. However, for coplannar waveguide, it appears to be a =3D > linearly-rising > curve with no resonance and it meets -15dB faily well. > > BTW, I need to clarify a bit about the interface: The interface I'm = =3D > talking > about here is the analogue link between SMZ connector and Tranceiver = =3D > analogue > side. There are a bunch of passive elements in between (transformer, = =3D > protection > diode, etc.). The "ground" in microstrip or coplannar waveguide is =3D > completely > isolated from PCB digital ground. > > Regards > > Perry > > Scott McMorrow wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > I'm not quite sure what you are asking. An SMA by nature is a > > single-ended creature. Measurements were made single-ended with one > > SMA, and differentially with two SMAs. But in both cases = single-ended > > cables and TDR heads were used. The TDR profiles matched simulation > > with extremely good accuracy, including all high frequency = resonances. > > > > In about a month we'll see how close the optimized SMA launch = pattern > > matches simulation. It will no doubt be better than our first try = and > > will allow us to further refine our modeling and simulation =3D > techniques. > > > > scott > > > > bpanos wrote: > > > > >Scott- > > >Were your measurements made with a single ended line or a =3D > differential? > > > > > >-Bill > > > > > > > > > > > >Scott McMorrow wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Ron, > > >> > > >>I have a vertical (top mount) SMA design that I've simulated and > > >>measured with the following characteristics: > > >> > > >>Insertion loss -1 dB @ 16 GHz > > >>Return loss -20 dB @ 12 GHz > > >> > > >>With this top mount sma we see a worst case TDR profile off a Tek > > >>TDS8000 17 ps head of 49 to 54 ohms. > > >> > > >>This design has been correlated to 3D full-wave simulation by > > >>measurement in both the time and frequency domain. As a result, I = =3D > have > > >>redesigned the launch to have the following characteristics. > > >> > > >>Insertion loss -1 dB @ 27 GHz > > >>Return loss -30 dB @ 12 GHz > > >>-20 dB @ 22 GHz > > >> > > >>with a simulated TDR profile of 50 ohms +/- 1 ohm. > > >> > > >>Depending upon where the signal is that needs to be tested, the = =3D > launch > > >>can either be done from top or the back side of the board, which = =3D > reduces > > >>the via stub problem. > > >> > > >>regards, > > >> > > >>scott > > >> > > >>-- > > >>Scott McMorrow > > >>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > >>2926 SE Yamhill St. > > >>Portland, OR 97214 > > >>(503) 239-5536 > > >>http://www.teraspeed.com > > >> > > >>ron miller wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>Hi > > >>> > > >>>It looks like whether coplanar or coax the vertical mount is not = to =3D > be > > >>>recommended. > > >>> > > >>>The big problem is the via,and the via capacitance, and the via = =3D > stub. > > >>>This can go as low > > >>>as 30 ohms. Your worst case stub is .093 mils or about 10 ps one = =3D > way or > > >>>20 ps round trip and > > >>>about two degrees 1/200 of error at 240 Mhz so it should probably = =3D > be ok > > >>>unless you must have a very > > >>>accurate timing edge in your signal. > > >>> > > >>>However, be sure to remove internal pads, and keep the spacing to = =3D > the > > >>>antipads as large as possible. > > >>> > > >>>For test purposes it is better to connect a piece of semirigid = .047 =3D > or > > >>>.093 OD with a female sma > > >>>attached to two surface pads. > > >>> > > >>>Ron Miller > > >>> > > >>>dmitrik@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>-------- Original Message -------- > > >>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] coax to PCB transition - return loss > > >>>>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:50:17 -0400 > > >>>>From: "Perry Qu" <perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > >>>>Reply-To: perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxx > > >>>>Organization: Alcatel Canada > > >>>>To: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>>I have been having problems in designing STM1 electrical = interface =3D > to > > >>>>pass return loss requirement (< -15 dB up to 240MHz). We don't = =3D > have a 3D > > >>>>full wave tool in house so I can't really simulate the interface = =3D > and > > >>>>provide proper design guidelines. My question, what will be the = =3D > best > > >>>>coax to PCB transition (75 ohm vertically-mounted SMZ = connector): > > >>>> > > >>>>1. a microstrip, where center conductor of SMZ is connected to > > >>>>microstrip lines on PCB and the 4 ground pins are connected to = the > > >>>>reference copper on PCB; > > >>>> > > >>>>2. A coplannar waveguide structure, ground - signal -ground, = where > > >>>>signal is connected to center conductor and ground is connected = to > > >>>>ground pins on SMZ. > > >>>> > > >>>>As long as we maintain 75 impedance control, I don't see much = =3D > difference > > >>>>in terms of return loss performance for the above two. > > >>>> > > >>>>Also, how significant will through hole via along the signal = path =3D > affect > > >>>>return loss at 240 MHz (assume 0.093" thickness) ? > > >>>> > > >>>>Thanks for your input. > > >>>> > > >>>>Regards > > >>>> > > >>>>Perry > > >>>> > > >>>>-- > > >>>>Perry Qu > > >>>> > > >>>>SDN D & Q | 600 March Road > > >>>>Alcatel Canada | Ottawa, ON K2K 2E6, Canada > > >>>> > > >>>>DID: (613) 7846720 | FAX: (613) 5993642 > > >>>> > > >>>> > > = >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>>To unsubscribe from si-list: > > >>>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = =3D > field > > >>>> > > >>>>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > >>>>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > >>>> > > >>>>For help: > > >>>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > >>>> > > >>>>List archives are viewable at: > > >>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > >>>>or at our remote archives: > > >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > >>>>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>-- > > >>Scott McMorrow > > >>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > >>2926 SE Yamhill St. > > >>Portland, OR 97214 > > >>(503) 239-5536 > > >>http://www.teraspeed.com > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>To unsubscribe from si-list: > > >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = =3D > field > > >> > > >>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > >>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > >> > > >>For help: > > >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > >> > > >>List archives are viewable at: > > >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > >>or at our remote archives: > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > >>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- > > >-- Type: text/x-vcard > > >-- File: bill.panos.vcf > > >-- Desc: Card for bpanos > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = field > > > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > >For help: > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > >or at our remote archives: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Scott McMorrow > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > 2926 SE Yamhill St. > > Portland, OR 97214 > > (503) 239-5536 > > http://www.teraspeed.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- > Perry Qu > > SDN D & Q | 600 March Road > Alcatel Canada | Ottawa, ON K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: (613) 7846720 | FAX: (613) 5993642 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > -- Perry Qu SDN D & Q | 600 March Road Alcatel Canada | Ottawa, ON K2K 2E6, Canada DID: (613) 7846720 | FAX: (613) 5993642 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu