[SI-LIST] Re: EMC versus SI, or EMC + SI?
- From: olaney@xxxxxxxx
- To: Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:45:06 -0700
Basically, I agree with you. The whole point is to get to a hiring
manager who can tell whether a candidate knows at he's talking about.
And I'm certainly not for certification as some sort of membership card
that you have to have to get a job. As an experienced hiring manager
myself, I know the frustration of sorting through a blizzard of paper
from hopeful but unqualified wannabes. A properly conceived
certification process is a filter not easily passed through that says
something good about those who made it. And it's something even HR
dummies can grasp. Think of it as the employment equivalent of Fastrack
versus having to stop at the toll booth.
Orin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:41:26 -0600 "Grasso, Charles"
<Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> No. A persons paycheck is certification enough. After that
> subsequent job interviews will determine the rest.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of olaney@xxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:48 PM
> To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] EMC versus SI, or EMC + SI?
>
> The field of EMC engineering is evolving from the classic
> test-and-fix
> paradigm. The test lab guys will always be needed, but the new
> perspective recognizes that many EMI problems are symptoms of
> underlying
> SI faults best addressed at the design level rather than by slapping
> EMI
> bandaids on a black box. Really good SI practitioners have some EMC
> competence, and really good EMC engineers understand SI. At that
> level
> of expertise the areas blend together because it's the same physics,
> with
> the difference that SI deals with the management of milliamps inside
> the
> box while EMC deals in microamps leaking outside. The essential
> factor
> that separates the men from the boys in either area is as stated:
> "adequate understanding of the underlying principles" rather than
> "iterat(ing) empirical designs into something workable". Software
> is
> supposed to be a tool, not a crutch, and a yellow pad is for
> conceptual
> work, not "accuracy down to -50dB" (assuming that is meaningful
> information). Engineers who come to me waving simulation results
> but
> cannot explain what makes the plots the way they are, can be very
> hard
> to
> help. In any instance, I presume we are agreed that digital is just
> a
> special case of analog. The techniques and analog components
> necessary
> for high speed designs prove it.
> That is also why I have to disagree that "analog is analog". Opamps
> and
> LC filters are one thing. A thing of a different kind is the ability
> to
> inspect a layout to discern the hidden schematic of parasitic
> components
> that govern many EMC/SI performance issues, the ability to visualize
> the
> invisible fields that result, and the ability to gain useful
> information
> from symptoms that change simply from moving a hand or touching a
> surface. This is what makes EMC/SI seem like a black art to the
> uninitiated. If you accept that RF engineering has long been a
> specialty
> not to be taken lightly, surely the ability to design competent
> audio or
> power supply circuitry (both nontrivial tasks, based on the
> specification
> of competent as opposed to adequate) is not of itself qualification
> for
> dealing with microwave rate bit streams.
>
> Here's a thought for this forum: EMC has a recognized credential in
> the
> form of NARTE certification for those who demonstrate relevant
> experience
> and pass a qualifying exam. Is the SI field ripe for an
> equivalent?=20
> Should they be separate?
>
> Orin Laney
>
> P.S. Thank you, Roy, for the reference list.
>
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:30:02 -0700 "Chris Cheng"
> <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx>
> writes:
> I walked many miles in EMI and still do.
> My company had never and will never have EMI only design engineers.
> I am
> responsible for anything that is not 1 and 0 in our system. I don't
> care
> if it is call SI or EMI. Analog is analog. Any engineer who work for
> me
> is capable of doing both.
> > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
> > make an entire
> > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
> > half-dozen principles
> I am still waiting for you to tell me how your EMI engineer can make
> their career out of my examples below.
>
>
>
>
> From: Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal
> [mailto:crleventhal@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sun 3/23/2008 8:08 PM
> To: Chris Cheng; olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I'm heavily into using modeling and simulation. Check my website:
> http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com. I'm also a great advocate of
> combining EDA tools with the yellow pad for maximum efficiency and
> understanding.
>
> I recently had/have the opportunity to do some EMI engineering.
> Before
> either SI engineers cast aspersions on EMI engineers or vice-versa I
> suggest they walk in the others' moccasins a few miles.
>
> You are right that EMI engineers will have to be better tool users
> in
> the
> future. Why don't you help them get started, as I am trying to do?
>
> Best Regards
>
> Roy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:52 PM
> To: olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>
>
> I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel with
> accuracy
> down to -50db with a yellow pad.
> I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily loaded
> DDR2/3 buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and driving
> positions under sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow pad.
> I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that has
> imperfect return reference planes with a yellow pad.
> I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga hertz IC
> where
> the power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and 3D with a
> yellow
> pad.
>
> Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What does
> your
> average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ?
>
>
>
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM
> To: Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>
>
>
> The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily reliant
> upon
> really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical designs
> into
> something workable. The same designer, given adequate understanding
> of
> the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a yellow
> pad,
> then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check. When I see SI
> related job descriptions that want work experience with a big list
> of
> tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is: substitution
> of
> tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they get
> into
> trouble.
>
> Orin
>
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