[SI-LIST] Re: EMC versus SI, or EMC + SI?

I can't continue this discussion.
If you have never heard of 10GBase-KR Ad Hoc channel. Never know multidrop 
source synchronous bus analysis methodology. Never design a package. Never 
design a power distribution to a highspeed chip from die,package through the 
system. And yet claim the above as boys game, I can only stay on the short bus 
with the rest of the boys then.
Oh yah, I am making face at you from the bus window now.
________________________________

From: olaney@xxxxxxxx [mailto:olaney@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sun 3/23/2008 10:48 PM
To: Chris Cheng
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: EMC versus SI, or EMC + SI?


The field of EMC engineering is evolving from the classic test-and-fix 
paradigm.  The test lab guys will always be needed, but the new perspective 
recognizes that many EMI problems are symptoms of underlying SI faults best 
addressed at the design level rather than by slapping EMI bandaids on a black 
box.  Really good SI practitioners have some EMC competence, and really good 
EMC engineers understand SI.  At that level of expertise the areas blend 
together because it's the same physics, with the difference that SI deals with 
the management of milliamps inside the box while EMC deals in microamps leaking 
outside.  The essential factor that separates the men from the boys in either 
area is as stated: "adequate understanding of the underlying principles"  
rather than "iterat(ing) empirical designs into something workable".   Software 
is supposed to be a tool, not a crutch, and a yellow pad is for conceptual 
work, not "accuracy down to -50dB" (assuming that is meaningful information).  
Engineers who come to me waving simulation results but cannot explain what 
makes the plots the way they are, can be very hard to help.  In any instance, I 
presume we are agreed that digital is just a special case of analog.  The 
techniques and analog components necessary for high speed designs prove it.
 
That is also why I have to disagree that "analog is analog".  Opamps and LC 
filters are one thing.  A thing of a different kind is the ability to inspect a 
layout to discern the hidden schematic of parasitic components that govern many 
EMC/SI performance issues, the ability to visualize the invisible fields that 
result, and the ability to gain useful information from symptoms that change 
simply from moving a hand or touching a surface.  This is what makes EMC/SI 
seem like a black art to the uninitiated.  If you accept that RF engineering 
has long been a specialty not to be taken lightly, surely the ability to design 
competent audio or power supply circuitry (both nontrivial tasks, based on the 
specification of competent as opposed to adequate) is not of itself 
qualification for dealing with microwave rate bit streams.
 
Here's a thought for this forum: EMC has a recognized credential in the form of 
NARTE certification for those who demonstrate relevant experience and pass a 
qualifying exam.  Is the SI field ripe for an equivalent?  Should they be 
separate?
 
Orin Laney
 
P.S. Thank you, Roy, for the reference list.
 
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:30:02 -0700 "Chris Cheng" <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx> writes:

        I walked many miles in EMI and still do.
        My company had never and will never have EMI only design engineers. I 
am responsible for anything that is not 1 and 0 in our system. I don't care if 
it is call SI or EMI. Analog is analog. Any engineer who work for me is capable 
of doing both.
        > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
        > make an entire
        > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
        > half-dozen principles
        I am still waiting for you to tell me how your EMI engineer can make 
their career out of my examples below.
        

________________________________

        From: Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal [mailto:crleventhal@xxxxxxxxxxx]
        Sent: Sun 3/23/2008 8:08 PM
        To: Chris Cheng; olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
        Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
        
        
         
        Chris,
         
        I'm heavily into using modeling and simulation. Check my website: 
http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com 
<http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/> . I'm also a great advocate of 
combining EDA tools with the yellow pad for maximum efficiency and 
understanding.
         
        I recently had/have the opportunity to do some EMI engineering. Before 
either SI engineers cast aspersions on EMI engineers or vice-versa I suggest 
they walk in the others' moccasins a few miles.
         
        You are right that EMI engineers will have to be better tool users in 
the future. Why don't you help them get started, as I am trying to do?
         
        Best Regards
         
        Roy

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]
                Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:52 PM
                To: olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
                Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the 
USA
                
                
                I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel 
with accuracy down to -50db with a yellow pad.
                I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily 
loaded DDR2/3 buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and driving 
positions under sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow pad.
                I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that 
has imperfect return reference planes with a yellow pad.
                I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga 
hertz IC where the power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and 3D with 
a yellow pad.
                 
                Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What 
does your average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ?

________________________________

                From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx
                Sent: Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM
                To: Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
                Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
                
                

                
                The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily 
reliant upon
                really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical 
designs into
                something workable.  The same designer, given adequate 
understanding of
                the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a 
yellow pad,
                then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check.  When I 
see SI
                related job descriptions that want work experience with a big 
list of
                tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is: 
substitution of
                tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they 
get into
                trouble.
                
                Orin
                
                


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