[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Lance and why he produced
- From: "Carolyn" <marhaven@xxxxxxx>
- To: <Gsdman2@xxxxxxx>, <Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:47:23 -0800
From: <Gsdman2@xxxxxxx>
> Dania brought up the cross on the Osnabrukerland "R" litter. It should also
> be mentioned that a trace of Germany's lines will often go to that same
> litter, according to what I've read.
> When Lance was born, the breed was about 65 years old. (I don't have exact
> birth dates ... I'm rounding numbers off.) If we were to trace his pedigree
> back that far, we would find that in fact Lance, and any German Shepherd dog,
> is
> heavily backmassed on just a few dogs. So, if American GSD breeding
> continues on the same trend it has for decades, will we be able to declare our
> breedings to be "outcrosses" in the year 2030, even though all lines will
> still go
> to
> Lance? The reasoning is the same. There are no true outcrosses within
> breeds where pedigrees are concerned, and that fact is exaggerated by the
> reality
> that the GSD is a relatively young breed.
*******************************************
LANCE is just one dog......one name in the pedigree of many. Even if LANCE is
not in the pedigrees, almost all of the American Bred dogs will go back to the
same
source that produced LANCE. That would be Osnabruckerland, Hein R.and Axel D.
Same genetic code comes down THROUGH him and AROUND him in most dogs.
Some of the "issues" coming down are from his heritage....not LANCE
specifically.
Tom writes:
> The thing that people never think about is the reality that genes do not have
> brothers and sisters. If there is one simple gene for down ears, or any
> other particular trait, it is the same gene in brother and sister as it is in
> dogs
> of completely different breeds. Every dog has a sire and a dam and each sire
> and dam give a separate assembly of genetic makeup. If you start with one
> sire and dam, and then never breed out from the resulting progeny, you will
> likely be working with a fairly narrow gene pool.
***************************************
AND......within that narrow gene pool....IF you don't have the gene for whatever
"bad gene"........the linebreeding or backmassing will not create it. It must
be
there to start with. Also, outcrossing won't get rid of it IF the parents
carry it.
In the wild.....survival of the fittest rules....that "bad gene" is eliminated
quickly.
But within the pack...or herd....inbreeding goes on. They don't read
pedigrees.
Our problem is that man reads the pedigrees and talks about it.....but if he
gets
the result he wants......he forgets and forgives the problems he went through
to get the good results he wanted.
Nature never has this sudden memory loss......nature never forgets and never
forgives and will always eliminate the problem.....sooner or later.
Tom writes:
However, the moment you breed > one of those progeny out to a less related dog,
you will have most likely > returned to the more diverse gene pool that you
started
with, but likely with a > different mix of genes. It is not enough to trace a
pedigree
and see only how > many times a dog goes back to any one particular dog. You
must also consider > the genetic input given by those hundreds of bitches who
were bred to that stud > dog.> > Tom Langlitz
*****************************************
And therein lies the problem. ( it also could be the SAME mix of genes but just
different names in the pedigree ) <G> As Tom says, It is not the name of the
dog in the pedigree....it is the gene pool of the two dogs you are breeding.
LANCE for example with the missing tooth could produce a son or grandson that
didn't pick up the missing tooth gene, and bred to his own half sister who also
doesn't carry the gene for a missing tooth....you will not get it even though
LANCE
is already in the pedigree twice....then linebreed again with some distant LANCE
progeny that doesn't carry the gene.....you STILL won't get it.
NOW......IF the son DID pick up the missing tooth gene....and you bred him to a
COMPLETE OUTCROSS bitch that also happens to carry the missing tooth gene
from another source ...you will get it. You can choose to blame LANCE...or you
can do your homework. ( just an example ) same with M.E., hips, coats,
blues.....
HEY TOM.........WHERE YA BEEN!!!! GREAT POST!!! <G>
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com
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