Well since Troll is my ideal look of a shepherd, I think we should credit him instead of Lance. after all, any dog with Lance in its pedigree therefore has Troll. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If that is the case then Lances brother would have been a top producer also and he was not. Everyonce in a while a great one come thru and that was Lance. He was one of those dogs who bred to just about anything could improve on the puppies. The dog did not produce major problems - the people who did multiple inbreeds etc did sally ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================