Re: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA

  • From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:38:13 -0600

Hi, Oyvind,

Well, Orca has gotten a bit faster recently.  I'm currently running
2.91.6 which was the latest build.  I built it up from source.  Web
browsing is not something I would recommend with Orca if you want
rapid browsing such as you are used to in Windows though this is
actually getting steadily better but a lot of other stuff works ok.
These days, most of my web browsing in Linux is done from the console
(Lynx, w3m( and, as of a couple of days ago, in Emacspeak using Emacs
W3  Works well.  What I was recommending wasn't necessarily using Orca
but, rather opening Emacspeak in a terminal, quitting Orca and running
a shell from within emacspeak.  Another thing you could do is run Yasr
in the Gnome terminal instead of Orca.  yasr is designed for running
in a terminal/console though I don't know anything about the braille
support.  You would not need Emacspeak in this case.  You may find it
more responsive than Orca in this environment.  Vinux 3.0 has all
three screen readers pre-installed, Orca, Speakup and Yasr so you can
take your pick of what tool to use for which function.  I frequently
jump from one to the other depending on what I want to do.  It's
pretty seemless too and they fill in each others gaps most amazingly
so that you have accessibility no matter the environment.  Since they
run in places independent of each other, you can have them all loaded
at the same time and there's no conflict.  I also have Emacspeak going
and use it for things the other stuff won't give me like text
manipulation.  You'd have to set up your own Emacspeak though.  I
assume you know how to do that but, in case you don't:

(Verry generic Debian based way.  In Vinux, it's a bit more complex.)
apt-get install emacs
apt-get install emacspeak

Now then, you know the best of all solutions is to run Linux natively
and go from there.  Nothing beats that option if what you want is
seemless speed.  You always trade something for trying to walk the
fence, you know.  If you need windows for stuff, you could use a dual
boot option.  You could even do all sorts of cutting and pasting in
the console if you are running Gnu Screen if you prefer the console to
the gui terminal.  You probably know all this already though.

Best regards,
Alex M

On 2/11/11, Øyvind Lode <oyvind@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Alex:
>
> It may be time for me to try out GNOME and Orca again.
> The GNOME terminal is fine, but Orca is not...
> The last time I tried Orca and GNOME I found it extremely slow and clunky.
> Even working in the GNOME terminal was a mess.
> Orca's braille implementation sucks in my opinion.
> For instance I couldn't use the routing buttons when working in GNOME
> terminal.
> And don't even mention the web experience with Orca.
>
> Orca may have improved since then, so it would be fun to give it a try
> again.
>
> But Speakup + BRLTTY in the text consoles is much better.
> But I often need to copy output from the terminal and paste it in a app
> running in Windows (the host machine).
>
> The best solution I've found so far is Cygwin with JAWS.
> Though I have issues with Cygwin it's nothing compared to the mess I had
> running a VM...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence
> Sent: 11. februar 2011 06:23
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>
> Hi, Oyvind,
>
> I feel your pain, man.  I miss my braille in Vmware.  You are right, it is
> VmWare although, there's a fellow on the Vinux list right now who claims he
> got braille to work for him.  I'm going to try it out with a different
> display than the one I've been using to see if it's actually a braille
> dispplay specific issue.
>
> Is there any reason you are averse to an x-windows session?  Gnome has a
> nice terminal, you know.  If you don't like the way Orca reads it, you can
> switch to Yasr.  Vinux 3.0 comes with Orca, Yasr and Speakup all installed.
> The cd version is like 680 megs which is not too terribly big.  You are
> right though, if you are using strictly CLI, cutting and pasting will be an
> issue.  What you could do also is something I've done a few times myself:
>
> Use control alt t to open a terminal in Vinux Insert q and tab to quit orca
> type Emacspeak From emacspeak, alt x shell Now, when you need to paste, you
> should be able to because Emacspeak has a paste option and you can use it in
> vmware if you run emacspeak in a terminal of Gnome.
>
> If you don't know how to paste, use alt ` to access the Emacs menu bar,
> arrow down to edit, press enter and arow down to paste and press enter to
> select.  That menu bar is a well-kept secret but it has saved me lots of
> time when I didn't know the hotkey for something and didn't want to spend
> years reading Info files to track it down.
>
> Here's another option you might want to look into.  See if anyone has ported
> Yasr to Cygwin.  It's supposed to be "relatively easy" to port Yasr to other
> Unix-like environments:
>
> http://yasr.sourceforge.net/
>
> I think Cygwin is largely based on Redhat Linux, right?  Might even
> work out of the box?  Worth looking into.   You'd have a tool that was
> expressly made for the job you want in this case.  All you'd need to do
> would be to put jaws to sleep and then let Yasr take over.
>
> Regards,
> Alex M
>
> On 2/10/11, Øyvind Lode <oyvind@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Alex:
>> I actually ran Vinux in VMWare (Vinux 2.x in VMWare 2.5x).
>> I experienced problems with Braille when switching from the VM to
>> Windows and vice versa.
>>
>> I ran Vinux in text-mode only and it was like sitting in front of a
>> real Linux box.
>> But another huge drawback was that I couldn't find a effective way of
>> copying output from the Linux console running in VMWare to Windows.
>> This is actually a limitation in VMWare - to be able to copy/paste
>> from/to the VM (guest) and host a X Window System is required.
>> I got around it by redirecting to a file and to open that file using
>> the share feature of VMWare or I just used WinSCP to open the file to
>> copy the contents...
>>
>> But I got tired of this slow and clunky way of copy/paste.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex
>> Midence
>> Sent: 10. februar 2011 20:24
>> To: programmingblind
>> Subject: Re: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>
>> Hi, Jim,
>>
>> Here is the Emacspeak users manual:
>>
>>
>> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/emacspeak/info/emacspeak.html
>> Some of it is a bit dated but it's the latest copy there is.  I've
>> been getting to know it pretty good these last few days.  I use it
>> inside a virtual copy of Vinux I have which I run with VmWare from
>> inside of windows.  As my earlier post shows, you can build emacspeak
>> inside of windows but it might prove easier to use a virtual linux
>> installation and run it in there.  It's native to Linux after all and
>> functions best there.
>>
>> Let me know if you want help with that.  I'll be happy to show you
>> what to do.  It won't mess up your windows and you don't even have to
>> boot separately.  It's like another app installed on your machine
>> almost.  I've got a Vinux virtual machine on my system at home and I
>> have Jaws, FsReader, openbook and vinux running Emacspeak, a few gnome
>> apps and a gnu screen session in another console and my machine
>> doesn't break a sweat.  It's old too.  2006.
>> Alex M
>>
>> On 2/10/11, Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Hi, Jim,
>>>
>>> You asked for info on Emacs (no pun intended).  Here you go:
>>>
>>> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> There's a version on single page html but it takes years to load.
>>> It's very extensive.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alex M
>>> On 2/10/11, Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi Oyvind,
>>>> Is there somewhere I can read about how Cygwin can help me? I'm
>>>> almost totally a Windows and DOS user, but I sometimes need to go
>>>> out onto a Linux server and do some maintenance. And if Emacs can
>>>> help, too, where do I read about that?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>> Usability Services,
>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients,  Read my
>>>> accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki:
>>>> Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Øyvind
>>>> Lode
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:27 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Emacs runs in Cygwin.
>>>> To get it to work nicely add the following to Cygwin.bat:
>>>>
>>>> Set CYGWIN=tty
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme,
>>>> James
>>>> Sent: 10. februar 2011 12:57
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Are you saying that Emacs runs in Cygwin?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>> Usability Services,
>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients,  Read my
>>>> accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki:
>>>> Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Øyvind
>>>> Lode
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:53 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> I can reproduce it but I'm not sure how to explain it.
>>>> I tried Putty again just for fun but it's even worse than the
>>>> Windows Console.
>>>> Cursor tracking is horrible and because of that Putty is not usable.
>>>>
>>>> I also see the problem you explain but I have cursor tracking issues
>>>> as well when using the Windows Console.
>>>> But as I said not as bad as in Putty.
>>>> This problem only occurs when I remote login to a Linux box from the
>>>> Windows Console using the OpenSSH package (Cygwin).
>>>>
>>>> When I use the console locally with Emacs, gcc and general
>>>> command-line use all is well.
>>>>
>>>> So what happens to cursor tracking after sshing into a Linux machine
>>>> is beyond me.
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Ken Perry
>>>> [whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 19:02
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Actually the problem is jaws tried to use the new console api in
>>>> windows
>>>> 7
>>>> and broke everything.  They have fixed some of the problem and I can
>>>> at least use cigwin with 11 and 12 without screaming now.  The only
>>>> problem I have is when deleting characters it repeats the whole line
>>>> on each character.  I will say though FS listened to me when I told
>>>> them exactly what was wrong they fixed the problem with the console
>>>> I had to have fixed so I could use it.  If you can reproduce the
>>>> problem and explain it to them they will fix it.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Øyvind
>>>> Lode
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 12:04 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Cygwin is actually using the Windows Console (cmd.exe) by default.
>>>> So, unfortunately JAWS does not work optimally with the Windows
>>>> Console any more.
>>>> However it used to work great - I started seeing this problem in JAWS
>>>> 10.
>>>> NVDA works great with the Console whether I'm working locally or ssh
>>>> into a remote Linux box.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: 9. februar 2011 17:32
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Hi.
>>>>
>>>> I use open SSH with Supernova with out any problems.
>>>> As far as I know SN just treats the ssh session as a normal console
>>>> application. Is there a way in jaws to use the set of scripts for
>>>> cmd.exe.
>>>> This assumes that jaws works OK with normal console applications.
>>>>
>>>> Hth.
>>>> Nick.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Øyvind
>>>> Lode
>>>> Sent: 09 February 2011 16:22
>>>> To: Programming Blind
>>>> Subject: Cygwin, JAWS and NVDA
>>>>
>>>> Hi all:
>>>>
>>>> I use Cygwin for C development on Windows.
>>>> I also use OpenSSH on Cygwin to access Linux/UNIX machines from Windows.
>>>>
>>>> And the ssh part gives me a lot of headache.
>>>> JAWS doesn't handle the console correctly when moving line by line
>>>> or character by character.
>>>> Some times it works but very often JAWS speaks the previous
>>>> character and sometimes not speaks the character at all.
>>>> Maybe I'm moving to fast?
>>>>
>>>> However NVDA handles the console very well.
>>>>
>>>> So, can anyone help me out creating a JAWS script to work around this?
>>>> Or recommend a different ssh client?
>>>>
>>>> Another solution could be to silence JAWS when the console has focus
>>>> (I know how to do this), but I can't figure out how to silence NVDA
>>>> when the console is not the window that has focus.
>>>>
>>>> I mean put JAWS to sleep when the console has focus, then wake up
>>>> NVDA to handle the console and put NVDA to sleep when I'm working in
>>>> Outlook etc.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this makes sense.
>>>>
>>>>
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