Hi Leah,
You are reading these requirements correctly, but it wasn’t that obvious at
first. The conflict boiled down to the phrase “remote observatory” and the
requirement that “Observations must be done through imaging.”
A remote observatory means one of the online companies that sell time on their
telescopes. If you do a search, that’s what comes up. You might claim that the
McMath solar telescope at Kitt Peak is remote observatory (not a stretch at
all), but how would I do imaging there? Or, could downloading an image that
they made be construed as imaging? If I find a website that has the event
streaming live - if I take a screen shot, is that remote imaging? Assuming the
strictest interpretation, I contacted a remote observatory at itelescope.net
and they said they don’t offer daytime services. I needed clarification.
I put all these bits of information into my first email to the coordinator and
asked him to include some URLs to these remote observatories on his webpage so
we could make arrangements in case we get clouded out. He said he had to
discuss these issues with some other coordinators.
A couple of weeks later, a 17-member group email referenced the problems and
introduced the clarification webpage. It did not clear up the definition of
remote observatories, nor did it expound upon the imaging requirements. Several
of the group asked for further clarification, and the answers seemed pretty
thin. I decided to just interpret it the way you did: as loosely as possible.
This new process, by the way, is a MAJOR over-complication of the Venus transit
of 2012, where one had to submit a photo or a sketch of the third contact point
and note the time in UTC. One also had to use a couple of NASA online
calculators to estimate the value of an AU. That was pretty easy. I got the pin
and certificate.
I get the feeling that there is still a lot of confusion in the ranks and at
least a little embarrassment among the coordinators. I am going to submit
calculations based on images from Bob's and my efforts, or images from an
online archive if either of us is clouded out. I expect their acceptance policy
will be pretty liberal.
Finally, doing the calculations is indeed the point, as you say. I was just
concerned that the way we were supposed to get the raw data for those
calculations was poorly explained, and might cause me to miss this event if
either Bob or I was clouded over. It’s a transient event and I don’t want to
wait a couple of years to try again because of a misinterpretation.
Alex
P.S. The early expeditions didn’t have cameras, but they did have a reliable
chronometer. Instead of measuring two distinct black dots from two different
perspectives, they relied on two widely separated parties recording the exact
time of the contact points. The difference in the two recorded times due to the
separation was just as effective as the measured difference in the two
positions on the solar disk.
Also, Venus is a much better transit to monitor because of its stable orbit and
larger apparent size. About the calculated results, the coordinator says,
“Submit what you get."
On May 2, 2016, at 6:01 PM, Leah S <lphxaz@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I don't see any conflict between these guidelines and what I wrote before.
these guidelines just add a few suggested websites for people who want to use
images from the internet, either for the second image (if they don't have a
partner in another location) or even for both im
oint of the exercise is not just the photography, but to do the calculations,
and to re-enact in a way the "Venus transit" expeditions of the the 18th
century. (gosh, the least AL could have done is offered us a free trip to
Polynesia, like in the 18th century expeditions... )
anyway the point is that the main goal here is to do the calculations, and
the second image (or even both images) doesn't/don't need to be done
specifically by a member of AL.
I think it would be cool to coordinate an image from Phoenix and an image
from Israel, rather than two US images, as the larger the distance between
the two points, the more parallax would be available and the more accurate
the calculation. is there anyone in PAS who would like to participate in
this, and who would be able to take pictures of the transit at around 7-8 am
Phoenix time?
On 5/2/2016 1:17 PM, Alex Vrenios wrote:
There were a lot of questions about these provisions. They ended up creating
a “clarification” page:
<https://www.astroleague.org/content/planetary-transit-clarifications-2016>https://www.astroleague.org/content/planetary-transit-clarifications-2016
<https://www.astroleague.org/content/planetary-transit-clarifications-2016>
I found a site where I can get images if Bob has too many clouds.
Alex
On May 2, 2016, at 12:32 PM, Leah S <
<mailto:lphxaz@xxxxxxxxx>lphxaz@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:lphxaz@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
actually if you look at the AL rules, they have an option where the other
photographer does not need to be a member of AL, as long as the AL member
does the calculations. see #2 and 3:
You can partner with another member of the Astronomical League who is
located at a distance from your observing location.
You can observe from your location and get a second observation of the
transit from a remote observatory location from the Internet.
Or, if you are not able to see the transit on May 9th, you can use
observations from two remote observatory locations from the Internet.
Observations must be done through imaging.
does anyone want to try this? even if Alex and Bob are partnering, we can
always compare their photos with those of a third photographer; or maybe
someone else wants to take up the challenge.
also, regardless of whether it qualifies you for an award from AL, why not
do this just for the fun and challenge, to see what result it gives, with
the opportunity to compare two very distant simultaneous photos?
I have heard back from an Israeli astronomer who is planning to photograph
the transit. he wrote that he can put his telescope on a timer for the
purpose of calculating the AU. he suggests that we synchronize our clocks
by UTC and then take pictures on the hour and at 15-min intervals. but -
sunset here is a little after 1600 UT. would someone be able to take
picture starting from 1500 or even 1400 UT? this would be 7 or 8 am in
Phoenix.
On 5/2/2016 11:14 AM, Alex Vrenios wrote:
Hi Leah,
Wow - that certainly qualifies for the “distant partner” in the AL’s
program requirements!
They would have to be a member of the Astronomical League, however, and
I’ll bet you won’t find anyone (other than yourself that is) in that
capacity. I’m attaching a copy of the presentation slides. I assume you
won’t be flying half way around the world to see my talk :)
I’m partnering with Bob Ewing. We will be taking three images, one at
1600, 1700 and 1800 UTC. He is still officially a member of the AL as well
as PAS, but he got a teaching job back in Portland Oregon, where he’s from
originally. So I’m covered, but thanks for the offer.
Hope you’re doing well,
Alex
Of course, this doesn’t have the actual images yet. I’ll plug them in
where it says “actual photos follow.”
On May 2, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Leah S <lphxaz@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:lphxaz@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I don't know what is the big deal. it is easy to find out the distance
to the sun! just look it up on wikipedia! :)
of course if you want to measure it yourself, just point a laser at the
sun and time how long it takes for the light to come back. probably you
would want to do this at night when it's dark... :D
ok, all kidding aside... I have spoken with some people in Israel and I
might be able to find you a partner here on the other side of the globe.
the transit will be visible here from the beginning of the transit till
sunset, which is around 7 pm local time, i.e. 9 am in Phoenix.
I'll let you know if I find someone to participate, if you are interested.
On 4/12/2016 5:11 PM, Alex Vrenios wrote:
You don’t need to see Mercury at any of the four contact points. You
need to have someone at a distant location take a photo of Mercury at
the exact same time that you do. Both photos must contain the full Sun
for alignment. If you have more than one simultaneous photo, so much the
better, but one is all you need for our level of accuracy.
Make two prints and superimpose them. Measure the diameter of the
printed solar disc, then measure the distance between the two
Mercury-image dots. Finally, you need the distance between you and your
cohort. Plug in these values and calculate the value of 1 AU.
I’ll be presenting all this in detail at the May 5th meeting.
Alex
On Apr 12, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Peter Turner <
<mailto:peteturner@xxxxxxxxxxx>peteturner@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:peteturner@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I guess I’m confused about how we can do the measurement. It’s my
understanding that we need to be able to see Mercury as it touches the
eastern limb of the sun and as it touches the western limb. Since the
transit starts prior to the sun rising for viewers in the west, how do
we do this?
Pete Turner
From: pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:pasmembers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Alex Vrenios
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:29 PM
To: pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:pasmembers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pasmembers] Re: Mercury Transit
Here’s my thinking on the matter. If we are both watching the Sun rise,
I imagine us both standing on the “side” of a sphere, looking east,
toward the Sun above our horizon.
With that image in mind, our difference in latitude is what would
influence the offset between our two projections of Mercury’s disc onto
that of the Sun. Our difference in longitude is trivial when compared
to the distance between us and the Sun.
Alex
On Apr 11, 2016, at 9:12 PM, Robert Ewing <
<mailto:rrewing9@xxxxxxxxx>rrewing9@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:rrewing9@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Alex...and Ted and all.....nicely done....
I was wondering about the difference in longitude between us being a
factor. But if we both (and others too) use horizontal lines across
the solar disc and
measure parallax angle from those lines (across opposed to using
specific points) we should be ok. Boy,
do we have to be precise!! The parallax will be
1/3 the diameter of Mercury's disc!! Ha!
I will see if I can get someone in Bend, Oregon to join us because it
will almost certainly be clear there. Very dry. Central Oregon
Community College is there. Also Pine Mt. Observatory (where I used
to do education/public outreach).
Cheers everyone!
Bob E
On Apr 11, 2016 5:06 PM, "Alex Vrenios" <
<mailto:axv@xxxxxxx>axv@xxxxxxx <mailto:axv@xxxxxxx>> wrote:
One thing, if I’m reading the requirements correctly, is that anyone
can pair up with anyone else. That is, if Ted and Bob get images at
exactly 9am, 10am and 11am Phoenix time (1800, 1700 and 1600Z), anyone
else in the club can use their images same-time to perform the
measurements and calculations. Bob and Ted can only pair up with one
of us, but I see no prohibition against anyone or everyone using these
images to compare with their own.
Bob and I have a PowerPoint slide set that describes the details. I
plan to use them at the May 5th meeting to show what this is all
about. I will be happy to send a PDF to anyone who may not be able to
attend the May meeting.
Alex
P.S. There are options in case the sky is cloudy at one or both
locations, allowing an AL member to use imaging over the Internet at
one or even two web locations to gather the data. I asked if a screen
shot of a live stream was okay. I also pointed out that the only
“remote imaging” site I could find, at iTelescope.net
<http://itelescope.net/>, told me they do not offer a solar imaging
service at this time. The AL coordinator said he would contact some
others and let me know how they plan to change these options.
P.P.S. The AL’s Transit of Venus (in 2012) did NOT require two sets of
images. You only had to make a sketch and then go to a NASA site to do
three “activities,” one of which was to download their images and plug
in your measurements to get the calculated value of 1 AU.
On Apr 11, 2016, at 4:01 PM, Ted Blank <
<mailto:tedblank@xxxxxxxxx>tedblank@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:tedblank@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I will be on the East coast for the Mercury transit and would love to
try this with club members back here in Phoenix. It's about time we
knew how far away the sun was! 🌝
Best regards,
Ted Blank
(603) 817 9814 <tel:%28603%29%20817%209814> (cell)
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 11, 2016, at 2:43 PM, Terri <
<mailto:starstuff@xxxxxxxxx>starstuff@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:starstuff@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Alex,
the May 5 meeting would work good for a discussion about this
project, if you want to prep something about it. Dan doesn't usually
do too long of a presenation, so we should have time after his talk
to discuss the Mercury transit
Sam, is this ok with you and should we put it on the agenda?
I want to hear about it, even if I'm not planning to do it. Sounds
intriguing.
Terri
On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Alex Vrenios <
<mailto:axv@xxxxxxx>axv@xxxxxxx <mailto:axv@xxxxxxx>> wrote:
The Astronomical League is offering an award (pin and certificate)
for meeting the requirements as stated on their website
http://astroleague.org ;<http://astroleague.org/>. Scroll down to
“Mercury Transit Special Award is now here” and click on the word
“here” at the end of that paragraph. This page has all the
requirements you must meet in order to receive the award. All
members of PAS are automatically PAS club affiliates of the AL so
your first requirement is already met.
The next set of requirements are not for the faint at heart. They
involve the cooperation of two observers at some distance apart
(PVCC to BMC should be enough) and a lot of trigonometry. You and
your partner will be using the separate observations to calculate “1
AU” the distance from the Earth to the Sun.
I need to look at the details more carefully first, but I’d like to
propose a short talk about this at an upcoming meeting if there is
any interest.
Alex
--
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