Phil Enns refers to the "non-violence" of early Christians, and cites Tertullian in his favor. But was it really violence *as such* that early Christians objected to, or rather enlistment in the *pagan* army, and fighting for the *pagan* state? As far as the pacifistic Tertullian is concerned, Nietzsche long ago pointed to a passage from his De Spectaculis (ch. 30) that tends to show T. was not particularly opposed to violence *as such*, as long as it was exercized against those who "deserved it". If T. looked forward to the Day of Judgment, it was primarily becuase he would be able to gloat over the sufferings of the heathen : " But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent 31 of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One! What that exultation of the angelic hosts! What the glory of the rising saints! What the kingdom of the just thereafter! What the city New Jerusalem! 32 Yes, and there are other sights: that last day of judgment, with its everlasting issues; that day unlooked for by the nations, the theme of their derision, when the world hoary with age, and all its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?-as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more "dissolute" in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows....." So Tertullian the non-violent one can't wait to witness the atrocious torture of poets, actors, and chariot-drivers. But one didn't have to wait for Judgement Day : such sublime pleasures can be indulged in right now, in the imagination: "... What quaestor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favour of seeing and exulting in such things as these? And yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination". (goya@xxxxxxxxxxx) CNRS UPR 76/ l'Annee Philologique Villejuif-Paris France ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html