[lit-ideas] Re: kid camps & passion
- From: JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:25:04 EDT
Hello aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
In reference to your comment:
A.A. Do you ever talk about atheism with her?
She gets plenty of that from her peers at school, not to mention the kids
who assert that they are pagans, wiccans, etc. because their parents have told
them so -- while the kids have scarcely a clue what that means. But sure,
I've talked with Bronnie at length about the fact that not everyone believes
there is a god, different ways atheists believe what exists came into being,
how one might behave differently based on whether or not one believes there is
a god, etc. She's pretty sophisticated for a 13 yr. old. I've also told her
that the God I believe in loves variety -- just look at the magnificent
variety in the universe -- and that religions are things humans invent to try
to
make sense of their world -- not things God invents. That if there is a God
I am sure S/He understands every individual's attempt to connect with and
honour Him/Her. My 11 yr old on the other hand eschews all such conversation,
refuses to attend any religious service of whatever stripe, and is content to
curl up under or in trees, being companions with her cats. She's going to
be, I think, one of the people who find God everywhere in everything and have
no need for doctrine or dogma. She is profoundly empathetic and takes up for
the underdog with a passion. When hearing on the news that someone has hurt
a child, her response is invariably, "somebody probably hurt him when he was
little and he doesn't know it's wrong. Someone should teach him." Her
naivete she'll outgrow. Her love for creatures human and non, I hope not.
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: kid camps &
passion Date: 6/26/05 8:14:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time From:
_aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) To:
_lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) , _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
----- Original Message -----
From: (mailto:JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx)
To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Sent: 6/25/2005 12:04:50 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: kid camps & passion
My daughter is somewhat confusedly with what guidance my husband and I can
give her finding her own path. Jim (hubby) is Jewish and we've attended a
number of services, rituals, festivals, bar/bat mitzvahs, pesachs, simchas,
with
her along. She spent a few months studying written/spoken Hebrew with her.
My Mother is a profoundly devout Pentecostal woman, to whom my daughter is
very emotionally close. I have allowed Bronwyn to visit a number of
different denominations with friends of hers. I want her to have a decent
understanding of the varieties of beliefs of other people and cultures. We
talk a lot
about different paths and their validities.
A.A. Do you ever talk about atheism with her?
I had no clue they were going to show the movie, was appalled, relieved that
she didn't end up watching it, and will be spending considerable time
debriefing her over the next few days.
The thing that astonished me most, however, is the notion of a "PG13"
version of it out there. I'm still trying to figure out if that one is true
and if
so, what in the world it is like.
A.A. Personally, I think the entire Bible is pretty X rated for both sex and
violence. The old testament is the story of a psychopath. The new
testament is a pretty accurate portrayal of human nature in my opinion.
People love
gore, public hangings, etc. Beheadings were in the Bible long before the
Islamists. Charles Bronson did PG versions of theBible. Born agains do a
good
job of sanitizing for the public as well. I would imagine an effort to
make a PG version of a slasher film would acknowledge that it could be harmful
to children. I would argue it's harmful to adults as well, but I'm an
atheist, so what do I know.
Andy Amago
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: kid camps &
passion Date: 6/25/05 10:45:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time From:
_writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx) To:
_lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
Julie -
I thought you were Jewish. Sending your Jewish daughter to a Christian bible
camp sounds even more problematic to me than watching a passionately
anti-semitic film about the passion of Christ. (And watching it without you by
her
side to add some perspective to what she sees.)
This is not a bible camp with an interfaith component to it, is it? Unless I
overlooked that. Your daughter's not getting a perspective on the bible that
comes from comparing and contrasting the Jewish with the Christian versions.
She's getting a "true believer's" perspective without any countervailing
view to temper what she learns.
If this were in school, I would hope it would be looking at the bible as
literature. In a bible camp, I really don't think the teachers will be looking
at the bible as literature. And you won't be there. If they brought parents
together with their kids in a learning environment, that would be different.
She'll be there alone without the intellectual tools or maturity to raise
challenging questions and dare to openly dissent against what all the other
kids
will blindingly accept as gospel.
I would spend some time with your daughter now examining, analyzing, and
discussing all the accepted wisdom she's ingested by herself.
Stan Spiegel
Portland, Maine
----- Original Messa
ge -----
From: _JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxxx (mailto:JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx)
To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 8:52 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] kid camps & passion
Okay. The atheists can skip the first part. The second part I would love a
reaction to from anyone with any thoughts, insights, etc.
My daughter (13, going into 8th grade in the fall), begged me to go to a
Protestant church camp because some of her friends were going, it would add
some
fun to her summer, and she "needed a week to study God." I pictured an
innocuous place where they would swim in whatever water was their, do
"girl-talk"
after lights out, and have some Bible study. It's in Excelsior Springs,
just the side of Kansas (Marlena, I should have checked with you aforehand and
you might have given me a head's up). In any event, I sprung the $100 for the
week of fellowship and fun. To my horror, she called me on Tues. eve
telling me they were showing The Passion of Christ for the group and was it ok
with
me for her to see it. I still don't know if parental permission was
required or if she was just checking in because she has heard me talk about
it. I
took a deep breath, told her I thought she would find it incredibly
disturbing, that I had not seen it because of the amount of non-stop gore and
the
Biblical inaccuracies, and that I thought she would not be happy with the
experience. I also told her she had my permission to make her own choice
about it.
(The fastest way to make sure a teen does something is to forbid it -- if
when she comes home today I tell her I want all her dirty clothes on the
floor,
leftover food wherever she was eating it last in her room, and that trash is
to be thrown anywhere it's convenient, her room would be spotless in 30
minutes. Hmmm.....that's an idea.)
The other day a Mom I know from another non-Xian group and I were talking
and she said there was a "PG13" version of the movie "The Passion" out there.
Now I ask you. How do you make 2 1/2 (or is it 3?) hours of unmitigated
non-stop gore and torture, culminating in an excruciating death, softer, less
offensive? They digitally removed the blood throughout? They removed any
obscenities which were shouted in Aramaic? The guy doesn't really die at the
end?
Please -- if anyone knows anything about this, fill me in. I thought I
had a pretty good imagination, but this is beyond me.
Off to get kid food -- you know, massive pizzas, taco chips, string cheese,
ice cream.....
Julie Krueger
It
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