[lit-ideas] Re: Richard Rorty, Nietzsche and Jungian Darwinism

  • From: Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 02:37:47 -0600

Did someone disprove the notion that all life is dependent upon one another
for existence, the idea that all life is interdependent, while I wasn't
looking?

Julie Krueger




On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> The second sentence in my "Comment" reads "Jung hypothesized a sort of
> "Oversoul" for each species."  The Oversoul isn't God - although man seems
> to want to worship something and in the absence of God he has turned to
> superstitions of various kinds; so he may have wanted to worship the
> Oversoul if Jung's ideas had caught on, but I don't think they did.  The
> Oversoul for Homo Sapiens would presumably be more sophisticated than the
> Oversouls for the other species because it was, if I recall correctly, a
> projection of a given species - like the Mandala in his book on Flying
> Saucers.
>
> A better objection than any of those you voiced is "if each species has an
> Oversoul to protect it, why have some species become extinct?  And since I
> read Jung about 40 years ago I can't recall how Jung would have answered
> that objection.
>
> As to there not having been enough time to account for species through the
> pure randomness of natural selection.  I believe that is generally accepted
> by anthropologists today.  To compensate, Anthropologists have proposed the
> idea of periodic "jumps" caused, they argue, by such things as climate
> change and climate shifts.  They find long periods of time with little
> change to the fossils; then there is some sort of geologic change.  They
> find an anomalous layer of sediment and after that the species are changed.
>
> And yes, another planet or better yet planets to pollute if that is an
> unalterable characteristic of our species.  Shall we instead commit species
> suicide because we pollute?  As soon as man gave up his hunter-gatherer
> existence and settled in little villages, he began to pollute.  Actually he
> polluted earlier but sort of randomly over the countryside.  But if he was
> staying mostly in his village then the pollution had to be nearby.
> Archeologists love his pollutions.  They find bones of the animals he
> killed, arrow and spear points and even the occasional evidence of murder.
>
> To suggest that we shouldn't hope for the continuation of our species
> because it doesn't behave as we think it should strikes me as rather
> unpragmatic and shortsighted and perhaps lemming-like.
>
> Anti-technology was a strong element in Heidegger's philosophy.  He was
> perhaps a semi-Luddite.  Most nations he thought couldn't handle technology
> and were better off without it.  Only the Germans, he thought, were capable
> of handling technology in the proper spiritual way.  Also, there is a
> strong
> Luddite element in the Environmental camp, e.g., you want to progress
> through here?  You will destroy the Spotted Owl if you do and the
> preservation of the Spotted Owl is more important than your "progress."
>  You
> say jobs will be lost?  Tough!  Better to lose your jobs than destroy one
> species.
>
> As to war, that too seems to be a characteristic of our species and good
> justification for spreading human kind over "Twelve Colonies" (in BSG
> thinking) rather than grouping them together on just one planet.   As to
> fearing a powerful nation, well yes, humans have always done that.  Rome's
> neighbors feared Rome, but Rome feared the Barbarians.  That in itself
> isn't
> a criticism of Rome or the Barbarians, it is merely the way we humans
> relate
> to each other.
>
> Lawrence
>
> From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
> lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Mike Geary
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:02 AM
> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Richard Rorty, Nietzsche and Jungian Darwinism
>
> LH:
> >>The Oversoul manipulates the general or collective actions of the
> individuals of a given species for its own good.  It takes responsibility
> for a specie's "survival strategy".... the Oversoul involves
> intentionality.
> <<
>
> So you're bringing God back into the picture just when we thought we'd
> gotten rid of him, eh?  Even Heidegger didn't blame God for this mess and
> he
> was strict RC with German stridency.  You're an incorrigible Romantic,
> Lawrence.  But a complex one, what with your love of no-nonsense Sparta.
> You write:
>
> >>Jung's thesis would answer one of the objections to Darwinism, namely
> that
> there hasn't been enough time since life began on earth to account for the
> development of species with the randomness that Natural Selection
> involves.<<
>
> I've never come across that objection.  Four billion years hasn't been
> enough time?  What did the Oversoul do to speed up the process?  Splice
> genes?  Something that ten thousand biology labs are doing today?  Why the
> hell didn't he (or she) just splice up humans 4 million years ago?  Ones
> already wearing lab coats.  We could be on our way to Planet
> Newplacetopollute right now.  It is a long ride, you know.  Forget the
> Oversoul, Lawrence, except on Sunday.
>
>
>  >> those who see the Earth as all there is want to take us in a Luddite
> direction: get rid of the machines.  Get rid of Technology, and we can
> perhaps learn to bring ourselves back into harmony with nature. <<
>
> Well, yes, as you mentioned, there's Ted Kaczynski.  And the other one??  I
> forget his name.  I think he's still on the loose, isn't he?  Technological
> World, take heed, a Luddite is out to get you.  Oh, and yes, let's not
> forget those damn Amish.  They're a clear and present danger to our
> technological world.  How will we ever get off this planet with them
> refusing to drive a car.  Heidegger wasn't opposed to technology per se, he
> just didn't like what it does to the position of the Catholic Church.
> Technology makes us forget God by finding some other cause for this and
> that
> and we forget the Bingo of being there.  I don't know it means either.
>
>
> >>The Germans, some of them, seem to be worried about us.<<
>
> Yes, and some French and some Russians and some Canadians and some Mexicans
> and some Danes and some Swedes and some Italians and some Indonesians and
> some Venezuelans and some Israelis and some Jordanians and some Iranians
> and
> some Egyptians and some Syrians and some Texans and even some Argentines.
> So what's your point?  Ah!  Here it is: "If there is a Jungian Oversoul,
> thinking logically from the Jungian assumption, it might well be stirring
> things up to hasten our departure from earth."
>
> So, God is fomenting all this discord just so we'll get our shit together
> and get the hell out of Dodge before he/she starts  raining fire down on
> it.
> Damn him/her!  Always with the destruction.  First the flooding, then the
> fires, then the locusts and frogs and rivers of blood.  He/she is a very
> dramatic God, I must say.  Some anger management issues though.
>
> But your main point is, and I agree with you, we've got to stop the
> Luddites.  Kill them if necessary.  It's shouldn't be so difficult, they
> only have their bare hands to fight with -- at least the true ones.
> Kaczinski was a phony Luddite using technology to fight technology.  Not
> just phony, but unfair.  No more Neville Chamberlainism, from here on out
> it's war, war, war.  Level those goddamn mountains in Pakistan and
> Afghanistan.  We've got the technology.  Won't take but a sec.  Then let's
> get busy making that rocket ship take'll us another solar system.  One with
> an eternal.
>
> I can hardly wait to move into my new home on Planet Newplacetopollute.
> I'll buy a fixer-upper and sell it for ten times what I paid.  My career
> has
> just begun.  More plastic over here!
>
> Mike Geary
> obeying the Oversoul
> of Memphis
>
>
>
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