Animals know death, of course they do, but I can't see how you can say they worry about it constantly unless you're being funny. They are wary when they need to be and stay out of harm's way as much as they can, but if they worried about death, they wouldn't run in front of cars, would they? And yes, they mourn, they have separation anxiety. They have emotional lives. They just don't have greed and obsessions that substitute for living. They usually don't fight to the death, they don't sit around designing weapons to kill each other. With the exception of designing weapons, primates fight to the death, but we're primates, with 99% same genes. The 1% difference between us are our weapon designing genes. As far as hating, dogs have a sixth sense whereby they sense vibrations, for lack of a better word and it's not inconceivable that other animals do as well. We got the big useless brain, they got the extra sense(s). The ram might have been responding to something in your brother that made it uneasy. Still, that ram didn't sit around plotting how to exterminate the object of its unease. Needless to say I think we can guess which one of the two, your brother or the ram, wound up in the styrofoam package in the meat aisle. Most importantly, nonhuman life ensures its survival by protecting its environment. Humans are the only species that deliberately destroys its environment. In fact, they not only destroy it, they don't even know they need it. Humans kind of do live in a warped sense of present in that they can't remember beyond five minutes ago or see longer than five minutes into the future, but the present humans live in doesn't stop them from obsessions and greed and meanness and war and on and on, in a world where we're all good and they're all bad. Nonhuman life just doesn't carry that kind of baggage. Yes, nonhuman life doesn't write poetry but it designs living poetry in its spectacular colors and fragrances and flavors and doesn't pollute a molecule of air or water in the process. --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 5:54 PM IC: >>Also, for Mike, I agree with Whitman. Animals face all sorts of things, but >>mercifully they don't have abstract reasoning so they can't worry about it >>before it happens.<< Do you think? Or rather, do they think? Unless they're machines they do. How sophisticated are their thoughts? I don't know. I would guess that a gazelle on the veldt would have more sophisticated reasoning than I about the significance of how the grass is moving and the what that scent signals and given the local parameters, which way would be best to run.. And if she had words, no doubt she would write a poem about it. Doggerel maybe, but dogs have a right to live too. >>They don't worry about death, about someone stealing from them and on and >>on.<< You must live in a different neighborhood. >>One day, like everyone and everything, they just die and it's all over.<< I seriously doubt that it's so cut and dry. Animals are not machines. They have emotional lives -- perhaps even more immediate than ours. Many species of mammals are apparently aware of the death of members of a herd or flock or of their own young and many exhibit periods of mourning. Dogs will mourn a master's passing. Many species show evidence of mourning the death of mates, of offspring, of alpha members. I witnessed the most amazing thing in this regard back in 2000. I had gone to work on a cooler in Everett, WA. While I was taking my tools out of the van, I noticed that crows were descending in the parking lot about a dozen feet or so away from me and forming a circle around a dead crow -- a circle roughly ten feet in diameter. They were all silent until the last one settled in the circle then all at once they all started cawing very loudly, it was more like screaming, a crow's version of ululation? It lasted for about a minute or two. Then they stopped in unison and flew away together. I was dumbfounded. Don't tell me animals don't know about death. Elephants and some other species often seem to have premonitions of their own deaths and will walk away from a herd to die. And when elephants come upon a dead elephant, they exhibit ritual behaviors of either burial or protection of the corpse. Mother monkeys will carry their dead infants and try to nurse them for a period of time or until the body starts to putrefy. They know death. And they worry about it constantly. >>Animals also don't hate.<< There are some dogs I've known that I'd like to introduce you to. Of course animals CAN hate. When we lived on a farm, there was a ram who hated my brother. He didn't bother anyone else, just my brother. He would charge after him and butt him for no discernable reason. There was just something about my brother that that ram couldn't stand. He must have reminded him of someone. >>Animals basically live in the moment, in the eternal present.<< Oh? Have they spoken to you about this? Many animals store food for the winter, many migrate to other climes as the seasons progress. Many build elaborate dens with emergency exits, etc. Some even use primitive tools to hunt and gather food. Is all this just living in the moment? You might claim that they do this in blind obedience to seasonal cues.. That it's all just instinct. But so too might all our reasoning be. If fact, I'd vote for the latter. >> The eternal present is the goal of meditation in fact, to stay out of the >>past (the unconscious) or the future (dread and foreboding, such as needing >>to enter a nursing home).<< If you say so. I'm not much on meditation. Too busy looking over my shoulder. >> Even when they they put their brains to use, humans develop weapons and >> destroy their drinking water and on and on. How is that in any way >> joyful?<< Not sure how this follows on any thing. I stand by my observation that animals, except perhaps domesticated pets and those in zoos, live lives gripped in constant fear of being devoured. Any moment might be their last and they know it. We humans live in a less impending environment. Vigilance is less essential to our survival. Our predators are primarily microbes and little DNA mistakes or else huge meteorological and tectonic plate events. They usually move very slowly and with indiscernible stealth until it's too late. Not many of us fall victim to the jaws of tigers anymore. Whitman's idealization of animal life as carefree and a more authentic way of being is rubbish. I wrote the poem because I was re-reading Whitman and reading that poem, I had to laugh. I used to think it was wonderful. But I was in an anti-Romantic mood. Not willing to suffer foolish claptrap. I understand and in many ways sympathize with Whitman's call to live life free from the Protestant ethic, but his metaphor is all wrong. Animals have it worse than we do, that's all I was saying. Didn't mean to stir you up. Mike Geary Memphis ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy To: lit-ideas Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed It might be why oil prices are going down. If we still had any influence in the world, it would be tempting to say that we're strong arming the Saudis to produce until the election, because if gasoline was right now at or near $5.00 a gallon, McCain wouldn't stand a chance. Or it could be just bizarre market behavior. And you don't have to worry about the economy getting better. It might get better on the surface but underneath there is still no foundation for it except debt and empty paper. Like they say, something that can't go on forever won't. Still, I'm willing to listen to someone making a case for building an economy on debt and empty paper. I continue to believe that the untimely interest rate cuts and the 'irrational exuberance' was engineered, but the way the economy just exploded to give Obama an advantage over McCain speaks to this financial thing having gotten away from the PTB. Richard Heinberg thinks the global casino as he calls it (i.e., wealth being produced from placing bets on stocks, on commodities, on for ex, hedge funds, in the absence of any real production) will be replaced some time in the early 21st century by a village flea market, where money will become valueless and people will be trading in real goods . It all sounds so catastrophic, certainly, but not without basis. Also, for Mike, I agree with Whitman. Animals face all sorts of things, but mercifully they don't have abstract reasoning so they can't worry about it before it happens. They don't worry about death, about someone stealing from them and on and on. One day, like everyone and everything, they just die and it's all over. Humans die too like everyone and everything, but they spend decades knowing they will get old and die. Animals also don't hate. Animals basically live in the moment, in the eternal present. The eternal present is the goal of meditation in fact, to stay out of the past (the unconscious) or the future (dread and foreboding, such as needing to enter a nursing home). Even when they they put their brains to use, humans develop weapons and destroy their drinking water and on and on. How is that in any way joyful? What is it about Sarah Palin that is about as unpresidential looking as it's possible to be? Hillary looked presidential. Angela Merkel looks the part. But Sarah looks like somebody's sister-in-law. Our national sister-in-law is our next president. Geez. At least maybe she can wear a moose shirt and polar bear hat. Why isn't McCain at least dressing her for the part? --- On Sun, 10/12/08, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Opinion needed To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Sunday, October 12, 2008, 7:05 PM Just pray that the economy doesn't improve before Nov. 4. : )