[lit-ideas] Re: Military Studies in the Jihad Against the Tyrants
- From: JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 06:10:16 EST
Oops. What Andreas said ... (Mental note 365: read ALL posts before
responding).
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Military Studies
in the Jihad Against the Tyrants Date: 1/16/2007 1:08:29 A.M. Central
Standard Time From: _andreas@xxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:andreas@xxxxxxxxxxx) To:
_lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
Lawrence:
> Saddam not Islamic? He certainly was. Do you think just because he
> subscribed to the Baathist point of view which was a secular form of
> government that he was not also Islamic?
Oh, Lawrence...
Saddam was publically secular right up to the Kuwait War.
For six months, the US did nothing, because they couldn't decide if there
was any reason to
invade. Margaret Thatcher solved that issue by calling up Bush Sr. and
telling him how this
could be his Falklands War: a nice fake war that would make him look like a
hero. So the war
was on.
To rally the Arab world behind him against the USA, Saddam promptly found
that ol' time
religion. He became a prayin' man. Hollerin' "Sweet Jesus!" and "God
Almighty!" all over the
place. You know the type.
His "faith" was political expediency, for the benefit of the masses.
That's why Osama and others despise Saddam and wanted to topple his
government: he was a
secular ruler in an Islamic country.
The quotes that you offer are nothing more than what they are: public
statements for the
press and the public. In other words, propaganda.
Read about the Baath Party: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba'ath_Party It
was a secular
socialist party (Yikes! Leftists!). Of course, that's how it started, but
after decades of
power and palace turmoil, it became just a military dictatorship.
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Military Studies in the Jihad Against the Tyrants
> Saddam not Islamic? He certainly was. Do you think just because he
> subscribed to the Baathist point of view which was a secular form of
> government that he was not also Islamic? He was Islamic at two levels. He
> belonged to the Islamic Civilization and he was also an Islamic Sunni. It
> isn't hard to find the truth of this matter. Do a search. You will find
> such comments as "According to the translator in the February CBS
interview,
> Hussein said that his journey in life, including his eventual death, is
left
> in the hands of Allah, his God. He said, "Whatever Allah decides. We are
> believers. We believe in what he decides. There is no value for any life
> without imam, without faith."
> http://courses.washington.edu/com361/Iraq/religion/saddam_political.html
>
>
>
> I recall reading his speeches - very much religious in nature.
>
>
>
> Actually what you list as one of my favorite arguments isn't really an
> argument but an assertion the way you have it. But Assertions can be true
> and this one is. Saddam was an Islamic Militant, or we could say with
equal
> veracity, he was a Militant Islamic or a Militant Muslim. I don't see why
> you should have a problem with this. I'm sure almost everyone else knows
> this.
>
>
>
> And I wouldn't call some of the rest of what you write anything I would
say.
> Saddam was religious but had a secular government (not hard to do. Most of
> our presidents were in that same situation). He had Pan-Arabist ambitions
> which would have disrupted the region had he achieved them - much as Iran
> might do if it achieves its current ambitions; although Saddam had a
> different approach to these matters. He was willing to use his army to
> achieve his goals whereas Iran seems to hope to get nuclear weapons and
then
> make certain demands it has described. Preventing this from happening was
> of prime importance. The Neocon dream of turning Iraq into a Liberal
> Democracy may not be realized, but that hardly turns Iraq into a disaster.
>
>
>
> Certainly any rogue nation that manages to gain control over all the oil
of
> the Middle East is a threat not merely to the West but to the world.
>
>
>
>
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:48 PM
> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Military Studies in the Jihad Against the Tyrants
>
>
>
> From: "Lawrence Helm"
>
>
>
>> Several here on Lit-Ideas have expressed their disdain for logic,
> Aristotelian thinking,
>
>> reasoning, etc.
>
>
>
> Here's one of your favorite arguments:
>
>
>
> Saddam was Islamic.
>
> Saddam was militant.
>
> Therefore Saddam was Islamic militant.
>
>
>
> Where is the error? You're being logical about a form, without seeing
> whether the
>
> definitions apply.
>
>
>
> 1) Saddam was not Islamic. He was secular. Look up the theory and history
of
> the Baathist
>
> Party.
>
>
>
> 2) You use the word "militant" in two senses: using a military against his
> neighbors and
>
> using a military against the West. He fits the first sense, so you use that
> in the second
>
> sense. An attack on Kuwait becomes an attack on Florida.
>
>
>
> Thus, the proper argument is:
>
>
>
> Saddam was secular.
>
> Saddam was a military threat only to his neighbors
>
> Therefore Saddam was a secular military threat to his neighbors.
>
>
>
> But you twist this into:
>
>
>
> Saddam was secular.
>
> Saddam was a military threat only to his neighbors.
>
> Therefore Saddam was an Islamic military threat to the West.
>
>
>
> See? By mixing up definitions, you produce a conclusion that is not
> supported by the
>
> argument.
>
>
>
> We can test this against reality.
>
>
>
> Bush has a new strategy: escalation and Iraqification. He appointed an
Iraqi
> to be in charge
>
> of his strategy. Who is this Iraqi? One of Saddam's generals. Yep:
>
> "Therefore Saddam was Islamic militant" turns into "An Islamic militant
(one
> of Saddam's
>
> generals) is in charge of US strategy for Iraq." That's obviously
> nonsensical: the enemy is
>
> in charge of our battle against the enemy.
>
>
>
> In the 60 Minutes interview, Bush himself had to swallow this bitter pill.
> The interviewer
>
> asked him if Moqtada al-Sadr was an enemy of the USA. al-Sadr and his
> militia are the
>
> political and military foundation of the Iraqi government. His militia also
> attacks the USA.
>
> To put it in plain talk, our main Iraqi ally is our enemy. By supporting
> Iraq, we are
>
> supporting our enemy: giving him weapons and money so he can attack kill
> American troops.
>
> Bush refused to say it in plain words because it is a very bad idea.
>
>
>
> So, Lawrence, why all this logic stuff? Well, that's obvious.
>
>
>
> You lost on the facts: Iraq is a disaster and even you've admitted it.
>
>
>
> You've lost on the theory: the neocon project is in shambles and even its
> neocon proponents
>
> attack it.
>
>
>
> So what's left? The purity of logic. You're going to logically convince us
> that you're
>
> right. Forget facts and theory. It's logic now.
>
>
>
> Well, I just demolished your Aristotelian logic.
>
>
>
> What's next? Abstract dance? You're going to do an interpretive dance for
> us? Naked,
>
> swinging a rooster?
>
>
>
> yrs,
>
> andreas
>
> www.andreas.com
>
>
>
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