For 12,000 years humans have beat their heads against the same wall and nothing has changed except the size of their calluses, otherwise known as shutting down, and the size of their weapons. Present an idea like give incipient humans what they need, that maybe reproduction is more than a physical process that anyone can do and anyone does, and they howl bloody murder. The very fact that you think that having children qualifies someone to know about raising children is a testimonial to how absolutely, utterly, universally clueless and ignorant people are. So howl away, it's worked as well as it has for 12,000 some years. Why stop now? Just curious, Mike, if a candidate ran on the idea that people need to be trained and licensed before having children, what do you think the reception to that candidate would be? --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: God loves a good laugh as much as anyone! To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 3:07 AM Irene, There's not much that you write that I disagree with --most of the things you want changed in the world, I do too. But I do take issue with you on your tone. You're always lecturing us, we who mostly agree with you. What makes you think you're the voice in the wilderness? There are precious few conservative voices on this list. I wish there were many more, but there's not. You're preaching to the choir, darling. But then you go and write: "The only real way to end the zombie-ism is to treat children with respect and dignity so they don't need to shut down. We're making some small steps in that direction but not nearly enough. The real answer, licensing parents, is met by deafening howls against it. How do you get a parenting license supporter down from a tree? Clearly David, you're an outstanding parent, but the vast majority need help, a lot of help and they are the ones who will fight tooth and nail against it." Licensing parents? What an interesting idea! What licensing test? Yours? You, who've never had a child? Never raised a child. Knows nothing of raising children except through academic psychological bull-shit theory? I think not. And the notion that opposition to such ideas as licensing parenthood is equivalent to racial lynching ("How do you get a parenting license supporter down from a tree?") is way, way, way beyond the pale. OK. That said, now, I'm back to my novel which is about people raised by unlicensed parents. Mike Geary Memphis, TN