Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!

  • From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 21:15:43 +0200

but thee real question is is windoweyes better than jaws? In which areas is it 
better in which areas is it worse?
Zdenek

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!


> Zddenek,
> The other major screen reader is Window-Eyes.  If you monitor the GW-Micro 
> list, you will see that users of this screen reader have problems with it as 
> well.
> 
> As for the free screen readers, if a user's needs are simple, reading email, 
> surfing the net, etc., one of them will probably meet his needs.  Otherwise, 
> he will have to pay and pay again to keep up-to-date.
> 
> As for the FBI, which you have mentioned more than once in your messages, 
> now that they have your email address from reading the JAWS list, they have 
> probably tracked you down already and are closing in on you as you read 
> this.  Run!
> 
> Gary King
> w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
> 
> 
>> can someone finally spelled out thee real alternatives for me, which  of 
>> them are better than jaws please! I hear on this list that there are real 
>> alternatives but nothing specific as to what is bbetter than jaws if you 
>> know an alternative superior to jaws just say it so all of us could 
>> benefit. For instance the authors of linux distribution vinux admit that 
>> the speech software for linux is still more limited tthan jaws is. I don't 
>> feel comfortable buying a mac, specially since FBI cqan get a hold of my 
>> info and as well as importantly the cost of mac acceeds the cost of 
>> upgrade of jaws many times. So any real superior alternatives, or is it 
>> just a talk and being fed up with a corporation named freedom scientific? 
>> I wonder whether users of other screen readers don't have similar 
>> complains about their own software.
>> Many thanks ofr a clear and specific answer to which software is superior 
>> to jaws.
>> Zddenek
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dorothy Ingram-Gorban" <Dorothy.ingram-gorban@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: "org, jfw@freelists. " <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>
>>
>>> John it has obviously served you well in its time and may continue ,but 
>>> it
>>> is a wise manufacturer of any product who  listens to its customers,and 
>>> they
>>> are the blind world wide, some have never been subsidised but used their
>>> savings, some on this list are in residential nursing homes on a fixed
>>> income, and still loyal to fs, but if fs fails to listen,now of all times 
>>> to
>>> the concerns of its customer base it will fail in the same manner many
>>> famous products have done in the past, for the first time there real
>>> choices, and whether or not fs is wise I think will soon be apparent.
>>> Regards  Dorothy
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John R. Vaughn" <jrvaughn44@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:35 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>
>>>
>>> I concur with your sentiments.  I have  been using Jaws for over 20 years
>>> now
>>> and it kept me employed, enjoying life and now enjoying retirement.
>>> FS and Jaws are not the be all and end all, but they have to have a 
>>> product
>>> that works for folks.  If it is not working for you, move on.  Meanwhile,
>>> this is a Jaws list to be a positive support to other jaws users.  Lets 
>>> do
>>> this or I will move on.
>>> John in sunny florida
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 6:13 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>
>>>
>>>> that's my understanding that eloquence is a history, but I am not 
>>>> freedom
>>>> scientific better check out with them. I did not mean to crriticize the
>>>> other fellow just asking to be more thoughtful and careful with words. 
>>>> It
>>>> seems to me that on this list there has become fashinable and perhaps
>>>> rightly so to critisize jaws but noone suggests better product or am I
>>>> missing something?
>>>> Zdenek
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Farfar Carlson" <dgcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 5:44 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Zdenek,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that the statement is almost meant to be inflammatory.
>>>>>
>>>>> You wrote: "I believe that they are leaving eloquence instead of 
>>>>> focusing
>>>>> on
>>>>> using the realspeak  voices..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to clarify, did you mean that they are moving away from Eloquence
>>>>> and
>>>>> will instead push to use RealSpeak voices?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd not be happy with using only RealSpeak for my day-to-day work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 07:48
>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that's a pretty strong claim to make. In any rate I believe that they 
>>>>> are
>>>>> leaving eloquence instead of focusing on using the realspeak  voices 
>>>>> that
>>>>> you can download for free, so perhaps that may explain the issue.
>>>>> Zdenek
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Devona" <djasister@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 4:31 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Did they fix it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: "Armond" <armond1980@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 8:19 AM
>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Subject: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>>>> Many of you might find the following email exchange between a friend 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> mine and Freedom Scientific's Jonathan Mosen shocking or, rather,
>>>>>>> frustrating. Basically, it describes a Unicode-related bug in newer
>>>>>>> releases of JAWS 11 which later turned out to be an intentional move 
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the point of Freedom Scientific to get users to purchase a certain
>>>>>>> right-to-left language pack from a dealer--at a higher cost--though
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is against the spirit of the Unicode feature. Here's my friend's
>>>>>>> message--note that he himself doesn't have a blog or venue to voice 
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> concerns and isn't interested in pursuing that line of action either
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> various reasons, so I'm doing that on his behalf and on the behalf of
>>>>>>> those who have been affected:
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Hello Jonathan,
>>>>>>> Please forgive me for sending you this message. The following bug is 
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> serious that I decided to notify you as I don't know to which
>>>>>>> FreedomScientific employee it should be sent. This affects the latest
>>>>>>> JAWS
>>>>>>> 11 update.
>>>>>>> As you know, each unicode symbol or character has a value in hex. For
>>>>>>> instance, the Persian or Arabic character "?" ("Alef") has the
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>> value: U+627.
>>>>>>> Now JAWS 11 interprets hex values in the form of the correct value
>>>>>>> minus
>>>>>>> 1. That is, for instance, the letter "Alef" with the value of U+627 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> read is "Yaa hamzeh" which has the hex value of U+626. That's quite
>>>>>>> strange, but the bug indeed affects all unicode symbols modified in
>>>>>>> Eloq.sbl! This means that I can't use the Eloquence engine to type or
>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>> characters in Persian and Arabic because what I type or whatever the
>>>>>>> cursor points to will be read as something else by JAWS 11.0.1447.
>>>>>>> Would you please inform JAWS developers about this bug? I don't want 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> downgrade to the previous JAWS 11 release.
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> My friend's second message:
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Just as a follow-up to my previous message, this bug affects the
>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>> of NumPad5 in a slightly different way. That is, if NumPad5 is 
>>>>>>> pressed
>>>>>>> once on a Unicode character which has a certain value in Eloq.sbl, 
>>>>>>> JAWS
>>>>>>> incorrectly reports that character in the form of the actual Unicode
>>>>>>> value
>>>>>>> minus 1. However, if NumPad5 is pressed twice on a Unicode character
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> its phonetic representation, JAWS incorrectly reads it in the form of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> actual Unicode value plus 1. Just thought I'd pass this finding, too.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Jonathan's reply:
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Hi Amir, the issue you've advised me of is actually a design change 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> JAWS. If you could please let me know your serial number, we'll look 
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> your situation further and see if there's anything we can do for you.
>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> My friend's reply:
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>>> That's a bit strange because the JAWS online help still indicates 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Unicode symbols can be added for engines like Eloquence which support
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> Eloq.sbl is mentioned, too. At any rate, am I correct in assuming 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the future it would be impossible to use Eloquence to read and type
>>>>>>> modified Unicode symbols and get correct feedback? May I ask why this
>>>>>>> decision has been made?
>>>>>>> As I live in a country which is now under various sanctions, I can't
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> credit cards or PayPal to pay for any app including JAWS, so I have 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> it in demo mode. The only exception to this is, as you know, use apps 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> test. On the other hand, I heavily depend on JAWS for reading and
>>>>>>> writing
>>>>>>> Persian letter by letter, using my modified Eloq.sbl file in
>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>> with Eloquence, because Persian doesn't have a TTS engine.
>>>>>>> Would it be possible to kindly make changes to the status quo?
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Jonathan's reply:
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Hi Amir, JAWS now requires a language processor to work with Arabic 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Hebrew correctly.
>>>>>>> This can be sourced from our Arabic distributor Medialog -
>>>>>>> http://www.medialog.ws
>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> My friend's final reply:
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>>> Thanks for the note regarding the Arabic distributor of
>>>>>>> FreedomScientific
>>>>>>> products. However, following the URL which you  provided results in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> display of a webpage with an error message, regardless of the browser
>>>>>>> used, indicating that the page cannot be displayed. Do you happen to
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> a download link for that language processor? As I badly need the
>>>>>>> processor, your help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>>> For your information, I'm pasting the error message which is 
>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> both French and English below.
>>>>>>> Medialog Accessibilities
>>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame
>>>>>>> Erreur de serveur
>>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable.
>>>>>>> La ressource que vous recherchez a peut-être été supprimée, renommée 
>>>>>>> ou
>>>>>>> est temporairement indisponible.
>>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame end
>>>>>>> The page cannot be found frame
>>>>>>> The page cannot be found
>>>>>>> The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name
>>>>>>> changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Please try the following:
>>>>>>> . Make sure that the Web site address displayed in the address bar of
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> browser is spelled and formatted correctly.
>>>>>>> . If you reached this page by clicking a link, contact the Web site
>>>>>>> administrator to alert them that the link is incorrectly formatted.
>>>>>>> . Click the Back button to try another link.
>>>>>>> HTTP Error 404 - File or directory not found.
>>>>>>> Internet Information Services  (IIS)
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Technical Information (for support personnel)
>>>>>>> . Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title search
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the words HTTP and 404.
>>>>>>> . Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager (inetmgr), and
>>>>>>> search
>>>>>>> for topics titled Web Site Setup, Common Administrative Tasks, and
>>>>>>> About
>>>>>>> Custom Error Messages.
>>>>>>> The page cannot be found frame end
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Now, do you think this intentionally-introduced bug, which affects
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> right-to-left languages, shouldn't be addressed in JAWS 12?
>>>>>>> Interestingly,
>>>>>>> even the first iterations of JAWS 11 didn't exhibit this bug, but its
>>>>>>> later releases do. I sincerely hope Freedom Scientific address that
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> responsibly without thinking about the extra copies it might sell to
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> who do not even need an Arabic or Hebrew TTS engine to read 
>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>> right-to-left languages. This is like getting Windows users in 
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> countries to purchase localized releases of Windows just to be able 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> read and write in their own native languages.
>>>>>>> BTW, if you can remember, my friend Amir has been behind the
>>>>>>> Symbian-oriented MobileSpace blog and also participates in beta 
>>>>>>> testing
>>>>>>> certain accessibility-related products for the visually impaired.
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Armond
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>>>> line.
>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zV­yÙbzK
>>>>>> hhTêZ?èm¶YÿÃ
>>>>>> ­ç?¢k?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶°¢·nzË>±Êâm觶¬¹¸ÞrÙb?à+r¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Úÿ
>>>>>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ
>>>>>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-?µçZ¶m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉdY¢µ¢?Ú0±ýµã?»öf"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{²¶¥SËb±·¢z
>>>>> î?Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶¥SËQjØ^­Ê'µ§-¶¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{­ç¥SËl
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>>> line.
>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, 
>>>>> or
>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>>>>> contact the list owner at
>>>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$zyzT?¶Ã­¢??rI¦,--?ÿ²..þ¶¡þS,?zr²²rz¦j±¶z¶v¢~-²N²rys²--±j±¶Â¹~-²Â¶¢z±m¶¹r?rzqu¶ÿ~-²ý?³Àz¶jS-µ¶§Ún¢¢?±ãö"¢½Éq±ºz¶¶zus-¢{¶S±z?¢²z¶Sj­µ¶SÂjÁS­S
>>>
>>> --
>>> JFW related links:
>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>> JFW List instructions:
>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>
>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or 
>>> the
>>> way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact 
>>> the
>>> list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3054 - Release Date: 08/06/10
>>> 08:37:00
>>>
>>> --
>>> JFW related links:
>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>> Scripting mailing list: 
>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>> JFW List instructions:
>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>> Alternative archives located at: 
>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>
>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or 
>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather 
>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zV­yÙbzK 
>>> hhTêZ?èm¶YÿÃ 
>>> ­ç?¢k?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶°¢·nzË>±Êâm觶¬¹¸ÞrÙb?à+r¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Úÿ
>>>  
>>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ 
>>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-?µçZ¶m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉdY¢µ¢?Ú0±ýµã?»öf"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{²¶¥SËb±·¢z
>> î?Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶¥SËQjØ^­Ê'µ§-¶¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{­ç¥SËl 
> 
> --
> JFW related links:
> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
> Scripting mailing list: 
> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
> JFW List instructions:
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> Alternative archives located at: 
> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
> 
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the 
> way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the 
> list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zV­yÙb?K   hh?êZ?èm¶?ÿÃ
> ­ç?¢k?éí?ø?r?¿IÊâ¦Ø§?f¢?)à?+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-?èÝ?Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+??h?¶©?+az7ar??bâ²Ø§²Úîrب?Äè¦?-jg¬±¨¶?azX¬¶Ç§v+m¢7ð~·??+-²?àN?§²æìr¸?yúè?Øb²f¢?)à?+-±éÝjg¬±¨¶?ß·ª¹ë-~·??+-²?àÂ+a¶°¢·n?Ë?±Êâm觶¬¹¸ÞrÙb?à+r¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Úÿ
> 0~·??+-²?àýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ   
> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!?÷¬??µçZ¶m§ÿçÚv?nW?¢oÉd?¢µ¢?Ú0±ýµã?»öf??ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶?,¶·?z+Þuúè?Ø^?+-¢»a{²¶¥?Ëb±·¢?
î?Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶¥?ËQjØ^­Ê'µ§-¶¥?ËhÂw«jØßÁ§f?{­ç¥?Ël¢¸

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