but thee real question is is windoweyes better than jaws? In which areas is it better in which areas is it worse? Zdenek ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 9:02 PM Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! > Zddenek, > The other major screen reader is Window-Eyes. If you monitor the GW-Micro > list, you will see that users of this screen reader have problems with it as > well. > > As for the free screen readers, if a user's needs are simple, reading email, > surfing the net, etc., one of them will probably meet his needs. Otherwise, > he will have to pay and pay again to keep up-to-date. > > As for the FBI, which you have mentioned more than once in your messages, > now that they have your email address from reading the JAWS list, they have > probably tracked you down already and are closing in on you as you read > this. Run! > > Gary King > w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:13 PM > Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! > > >> can someone finally spelled out thee real alternatives for me, which of >> them are better than jaws please! I hear on this list that there are real >> alternatives but nothing specific as to what is bbetter than jaws if you >> know an alternative superior to jaws just say it so all of us could >> benefit. For instance the authors of linux distribution vinux admit that >> the speech software for linux is still more limited tthan jaws is. I don't >> feel comfortable buying a mac, specially since FBI cqan get a hold of my >> info and as well as importantly the cost of mac acceeds the cost of >> upgrade of jaws many times. So any real superior alternatives, or is it >> just a talk and being fed up with a corporation named freedom scientific? >> I wonder whether users of other screen readers don't have similar >> complains about their own software. >> Many thanks ofr a clear and specific answer to which software is superior >> to jaws. >> Zddenek >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dorothy Ingram-Gorban" <Dorothy.ingram-gorban@xxxxxxxxx> >> To: "org, jfw@freelists. " <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:25 PM >> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >> >> >>> John it has obviously served you well in its time and may continue ,but >>> it >>> is a wise manufacturer of any product who listens to its customers,and >>> they >>> are the blind world wide, some have never been subsidised but used their >>> savings, some on this list are in residential nursing homes on a fixed >>> income, and still loyal to fs, but if fs fails to listen,now of all times >>> to >>> the concerns of its customer base it will fail in the same manner many >>> famous products have done in the past, for the first time there real >>> choices, and whether or not fs is wise I think will soon be apparent. >>> Regards Dorothy >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John R. Vaughn" <jrvaughn44@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:35 AM >>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >>> >>> >>> I concur with your sentiments. I have been using Jaws for over 20 years >>> now >>> and it kept me employed, enjoying life and now enjoying retirement. >>> FS and Jaws are not the be all and end all, but they have to have a >>> product >>> that works for folks. If it is not working for you, move on. Meanwhile, >>> this is a Jaws list to be a positive support to other jaws users. Lets >>> do >>> this or I will move on. >>> John in sunny florida >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 6:13 PM >>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >>> >>> >>>> that's my understanding that eloquence is a history, but I am not >>>> freedom >>>> scientific better check out with them. I did not mean to crriticize the >>>> other fellow just asking to be more thoughtful and careful with words. >>>> It >>>> seems to me that on this list there has become fashinable and perhaps >>>> rightly so to critisize jaws but noone suggests better product or am I >>>> missing something? >>>> Zdenek >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Farfar Carlson" <dgcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 5:44 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >>>> >>>> >>>>> Zdenek, >>>>> >>>>> I agree that the statement is almost meant to be inflammatory. >>>>> >>>>> You wrote: "I believe that they are leaving eloquence instead of >>>>> focusing >>>>> on >>>>> using the realspeak voices..." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Just to clarify, did you mean that they are moving away from Eloquence >>>>> and >>>>> will instead push to use RealSpeak voices? >>>>> >>>>> I'd not be happy with using only RealSpeak for my day-to-day work. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 07:48 >>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> that's a pretty strong claim to make. In any rate I believe that they >>>>> are >>>>> leaving eloquence instead of focusing on using the realspeak voices >>>>> that >>>>> you can download for free, so perhaps that may explain the issue. >>>>> Zdenek >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Devona" <djasister@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 4:31 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Did they fix it? >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Armond" <armond1980@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 8:19 AM >>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> Subject: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, all, >>>>>>> Many of you might find the following email exchange between a friend >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> mine and Freedom Scientific's Jonathan Mosen shocking or, rather, >>>>>>> frustrating. Basically, it describes a Unicode-related bug in newer >>>>>>> releases of JAWS 11 which later turned out to be an intentional move >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the point of Freedom Scientific to get users to purchase a certain >>>>>>> right-to-left language pack from a dealer--at a higher cost--though >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> is against the spirit of the Unicode feature. Here's my friend's >>>>>>> message--note that he himself doesn't have a blog or venue to voice >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> concerns and isn't interested in pursuing that line of action either >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> various reasons, so I'm doing that on his behalf and on the behalf of >>>>>>> those who have been affected: >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Hello Jonathan, >>>>>>> Please forgive me for sending you this message. The following bug is >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> serious that I decided to notify you as I don't know to which >>>>>>> FreedomScientific employee it should be sent. This affects the latest >>>>>>> JAWS >>>>>>> 11 update. >>>>>>> As you know, each unicode symbol or character has a value in hex. For >>>>>>> instance, the Persian or Arabic character "?" ("Alef") has the >>>>>>> following >>>>>>> value: U+627. >>>>>>> Now JAWS 11 interprets hex values in the form of the correct value >>>>>>> minus >>>>>>> 1. That is, for instance, the letter "Alef" with the value of U+627 >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> read is "Yaa hamzeh" which has the hex value of U+626. That's quite >>>>>>> strange, but the bug indeed affects all unicode symbols modified in >>>>>>> Eloq.sbl! This means that I can't use the Eloquence engine to type or >>>>>>> read >>>>>>> characters in Persian and Arabic because what I type or whatever the >>>>>>> cursor points to will be read as something else by JAWS 11.0.1447. >>>>>>> Would you please inform JAWS developers about this bug? I don't want >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> downgrade to the previous JAWS 11 release. >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Amir >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> My friend's second message: >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Just as a follow-up to my previous message, this bug affects the >>>>>>> behavior >>>>>>> of NumPad5 in a slightly different way. That is, if NumPad5 is >>>>>>> pressed >>>>>>> once on a Unicode character which has a certain value in Eloq.sbl, >>>>>>> JAWS >>>>>>> incorrectly reports that character in the form of the actual Unicode >>>>>>> value >>>>>>> minus 1. However, if NumPad5 is pressed twice on a Unicode character >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> its phonetic representation, JAWS incorrectly reads it in the form of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> actual Unicode value plus 1. Just thought I'd pass this finding, too. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Amir >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Jonathan's reply: >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Hi Amir, the issue you've advised me of is actually a design change >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> JAWS. If you could please let me know your serial number, we'll look >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> your situation further and see if there's anything we can do for you. >>>>>>> Jonathan >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> My friend's reply: >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Hi Jonathan, >>>>>>> That's a bit strange because the JAWS online help still indicates >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> Unicode symbols can be added for engines like Eloquence which support >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> Eloq.sbl is mentioned, too. At any rate, am I correct in assuming >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the future it would be impossible to use Eloquence to read and type >>>>>>> modified Unicode symbols and get correct feedback? May I ask why this >>>>>>> decision has been made? >>>>>>> As I live in a country which is now under various sanctions, I can't >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> credit cards or PayPal to pay for any app including JAWS, so I have >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> it in demo mode. The only exception to this is, as you know, use apps >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> test. On the other hand, I heavily depend on JAWS for reading and >>>>>>> writing >>>>>>> Persian letter by letter, using my modified Eloq.sbl file in >>>>>>> combination >>>>>>> with Eloquence, because Persian doesn't have a TTS engine. >>>>>>> Would it be possible to kindly make changes to the status quo? >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Amir >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Jonathan's reply: >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Hi Amir, JAWS now requires a language processor to work with Arabic >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Hebrew correctly. >>>>>>> This can be sourced from our Arabic distributor Medialog - >>>>>>> http://www.medialog.ws >>>>>>> Hope this helps. >>>>>>> Jonathan >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> My friend's final reply: >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Hi Jonathan, >>>>>>> Thanks for the note regarding the Arabic distributor of >>>>>>> FreedomScientific >>>>>>> products. However, following the URL which you provided results in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> display of a webpage with an error message, regardless of the browser >>>>>>> used, indicating that the page cannot be displayed. Do you happen to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a download link for that language processor? As I badly need the >>>>>>> processor, your help would be greatly appreciated. >>>>>>> For your information, I'm pasting the error message which is >>>>>>> apparently >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> both French and English below. >>>>>>> Medialog Accessibilities >>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame >>>>>>> Erreur de serveur >>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. >>>>>>> La ressource que vous recherchez a peut-être été supprimée, renommée >>>>>>> ou >>>>>>> est temporairement indisponible. >>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame end >>>>>>> The page cannot be found frame >>>>>>> The page cannot be found >>>>>>> The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name >>>>>>> changed, or is temporarily unavailable. >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Please try the following: >>>>>>> . Make sure that the Web site address displayed in the address bar of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> browser is spelled and formatted correctly. >>>>>>> . If you reached this page by clicking a link, contact the Web site >>>>>>> administrator to alert them that the link is incorrectly formatted. >>>>>>> . Click the Back button to try another link. >>>>>>> HTTP Error 404 - File or directory not found. >>>>>>> Internet Information Services (IIS) >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Technical Information (for support personnel) >>>>>>> . Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title search >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> the words HTTP and 404. >>>>>>> . Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager (inetmgr), and >>>>>>> search >>>>>>> for topics titled Web Site Setup, Common Administrative Tasks, and >>>>>>> About >>>>>>> Custom Error Messages. >>>>>>> The page cannot be found frame end >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Amir >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Now, do you think this intentionally-introduced bug, which affects >>>>>>> certain >>>>>>> right-to-left languages, shouldn't be addressed in JAWS 12? >>>>>>> Interestingly, >>>>>>> even the first iterations of JAWS 11 didn't exhibit this bug, but its >>>>>>> later releases do. I sincerely hope Freedom Scientific address that >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> responsibly without thinking about the extra copies it might sell to >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> who do not even need an Arabic or Hebrew TTS engine to read >>>>>>> individual >>>>>>> right-to-left languages. This is like getting Windows users in >>>>>>> certain >>>>>>> countries to purchase localized releases of Windows just to be able >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> read and write in their own native languages. >>>>>>> BTW, if you can remember, my friend Amir has been behind the >>>>>>> Symbian-oriented MobileSpace blog and also participates in beta >>>>>>> testing >>>>>>> certain accessibility-related products for the visually impaired. >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Armond >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> JFW related links: >>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ >>>>>>> Scripting mailing list: >>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com >>>>>>> JFW List instructions: >>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to >>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject >>>>>>> line. >>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw >>>>>>> Alternative archives located at: >>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather >>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> JFW related links: >>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ >>>>>> Scripting mailing list: >>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com >>>>>> JFW List instructions: >>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to >>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject >>>>>> line. >>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw >>>>>> Alternative archives located at: >>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, >>>>>> or >>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather >>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zVyÙbzK >>>>>> hhTêZ?èm¶Yÿà >>>>>> ç?¢k?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶°¢·nzË>±Êâm觶¬¹¸ÞrÙb?à+r¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Úÿ >>>>>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ >>>>>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-?µçZ¶m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉdY¢µ¢?Ú0±ýµã?»öf"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{²¶¥SËb±·¢z >>>>> î?Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶¥SËQjØ^Ê'µ§-¶¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{ç¥SËl >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> JFW related links: >>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ >>>>> Scripting mailing list: >>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com >>>>> JFW List instructions: >>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to >>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject >>>>> line. >>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw >>>>> Alternative archives located at: >>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html >>>>> >>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, >>>>> or >>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather >>>>> contact the list owner at >>>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$zyzT?¶Ã¢??rI¦,--?ÿ²..þ¶¡þS,?zr²²rz¦j±¶z¶v¢~-²N²rys²--±j±¶Â¹~-²Â¶¢z±m¶¹r?rzqu¶ÿ~-²ý?³Àz¶jS-µ¶§Ún¢¢?±ãö"¢½Éq±ºz¶¶zus-¢{¶S±z?¢²z¶Sjµ¶SÂjÁSS >>> >>> -- >>> JFW related links: >>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ >>> Scripting mailing list: >>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com >>> JFW List instructions: >>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to >>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. >>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw >>> Alternative archives located at: >>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html >>> >>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or >>> the >>> way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact >>> the >>> list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3054 - Release Date: 08/06/10 >>> 08:37:00 >>> >>> -- >>> JFW related links: >>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ >>> Scripting mailing list: >>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com >>> JFW List instructions: >>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to >>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. >>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw >>> Alternative archives located at: >>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html >>> >>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or >>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather >>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zVyÙbzK >>> hhTêZ?èm¶Yÿà >>> ç?¢k?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶°¢·nzË>±Êâm觶¬¹¸ÞrÙb?à+r¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Úÿ >>> >>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ >>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-?µçZ¶m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉdY¢µ¢?Ú0±ýµã?»öf"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{²¶¥SËb±·¢z >> î?Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶¥SËQjØ^Ê'µ§-¶¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{ç¥SËl > > -- > JFW related links: > JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ > Scripting mailing list: > http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com > JFW List instructions: > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw > Alternative archives located at: > http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zVyÙb?K hh?êZ?èm¶?ÿà > ç?¢k?éí?ø?r?¿IÊâ¦Ø§?f¢?)à?+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-?èÝ?Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+??h?¶©?+az7ar??bâ²Ø§²Úîrب?Äè¦?-jg¬±¨¶?azX¬¶Ç§v+m¢7ð~·??+-²?àN?§²æìr¸?yúè?Øb²f¢?)à?+-±éÝjg¬±¨¶?ß·ª¹ë-~·??+-²?àÂ+a¶°¢·n?Ë?±Êâm觶¬¹¸ÞrÙb?à+r¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Úÿ > 0~·??+-²?àýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ > mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!?÷¬??µçZ¶m§ÿçÚv?nW?¢oÉd?¢µ¢?Ú0±ýµã?»öf??ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶?,¶·?z+Þuúè?Ø^?+-¢»a{²¶¥?Ëb±·¢? î?Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶¥?ËQjØ^Ê'µ§-¶¥?ËhÂw«jØßÁ§f?{ç¥?Ël¢¸