[guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
- From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:20:35 -0000
Hi Rich;
What I suspect is happening, is that JAWS is using the IE extensibility
model, often referred to as the object model. This is just an API, which I
expect is implemented using a COM object. You can get an interface to a COM
object through a call to CoCreateInstance, and I suspect there's some
underlying C++ that does this for the script function GetObject. You can
then play with the methods and properties exposed through this interface as
if it were a C++ app, apart from you haven't got pointers, floats, etc. in
scripting that are used quite extensively in the WinAPI/MFC *smile*.
I don't know to what extent JAWS uses MSAA in IE. If it does, you should be
able to find things like GetObjectName() SayObjectActiveItem(), etc. in the
scripts, all of which get or speak MSAA properties. Alternatively, you
might find a call to GetCurrentObject, which will return the iAccessible
interface for the current window, or GetObjectAtPoint, which will return the
iAccessible for a co-ordinate on the screen. If either of these are used,
then JAWS is dealing with the MSAA objects from within the scripts.
Will
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@xxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:45 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
> Yes, I think that is how Jaws works -- getting proppeties etc from the
DOM.
> The big question then is how is the DOM made available to Jaws. That is
> perhaps where MSAA comes in. It can allow Jaws (which is sitting outside
the
> browsers address space) to go ask the browser to pass it the root of the
DOM
> tree. From this, and a little help from MSAA and its offscreen model, it
can
> make the browser speak fairly well. this is my understanding of how it
all
> fits together, but I've never programmed win32 applications, so this is
> largely speculation at this point.
>
> -- Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 2:08 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
>
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > I'd disagree to some extent with this. You have a set of properties
> > contained with in iAccessible, the interface for the MSAA class. They
> > contain things like the control name (AccName), control type (AccType),
a
> > description (AccDescription), the control's state, such as
> > expanded/collapsed (AccState). All these are generally used for the
same
> > purpose across all applications.
> >
> > What does very is the source of information a screen reader uses to form
> > it's output. For example, from behaviour I've observed with JAWS, JAWS
> will
> > use it's off screen model (OSM) for standard window classes, such as
edit,
> > button, etc. and use MSAA, if it's available, for window classes that
> aren't
> > standard. At least this is the case in standard windows GUI
applications.
> >
> > How MSAA would be implemented within a browser's page is open for
debate.
> I
> > suspect that MSAA wasn't really designed to represent web controls or
web
> > content, and was intended more for Win32 interfaces. So, there may be
> some
> > difference in how MSAA is implemented in browsers to that found in Win32
> > code. However, the W3C DOM may be of use, and if we're considering
JAWS,
> > then you can write an MSAA Client implementation using JAWS script and
it'
> s
> > ability to access COM objects through scripting.
> >
> > So, you could probably rig something up with JAWS through scripting,
> without
> > having to change any internal implementations within JFW.exe.
> >
> > Will
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 6:53 PM
> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
> >
> >
> > > Hooks to use msaa are apploication specific.
> > >
> > > Johnnie Apple Seed
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:38 PM
> > > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
> > >
> > >
> > > But that's the point Dave -- Jaws and Window Eyes have already put
hooks
> > in
> > > to handle MSAA, so if it is implemented correctly in firefox it should
> > work.
> > > But if someone has already put it in Mozilla, perhaps it is close to
> being
> > > accessible.
> > > I'm going to download it and try it. I'm always open to
alternatives...
> > > Take care and again, thanks for the info.
> > > --le
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:34 PM
> > > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
> > >
> > >
> > > > LE and all,
> > > > Msaa is utillized in the mozilla family but I'm not certain that it
is
> > > > available in firefox 1.0 Even if msaa is used, this does not
provide
> > > > automatic accessibility as the screen reader vendors must also do
> their
> > > > side
> > > > of it.
> > > >
> > > > Johnnie Apple Seed
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:27 PM
> > > > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Firefox 1.0
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi -- This is very interesting -- I know a few people using firefox
> and
> > > > love
> > > > it, but none are visually impaired.
> > > > However, in order to work effectively with jaws or WindowEyes, it
has
> to
> > > > use
> > > > MSAA to pass info to the screen reader. The MSAA interface is
> supported
> > > > in
> > > > libraries for the various programming languages on vs.net (the
> Microsoft
> > > > programming environment platform), but I don't know how to use it.
> > > > It would be an interesting project to add MSAA hooks to firefox and
> > > > distribute the source.
> > > > Now as for linux versions, I am not familiar with how screen readers
> > > > handle
> > > > browsing there.
> > > > I used to do hacks and bug fixes on lynx a long time ago, but quit
and
> > > > moved
> > > > to windows when I foundout how much better screen readers had
become.
> > Now
> > > > I
> > > > haven't been on unix/linux since I lost the rest of my vision, but
> know
> > > > many
> > > > blind persons who work heavily there with screen readers that have
> also
> > > > come
> > > > a long way.
> > > > So when I have enough money to get a linux box I may get one --
maybe
> > next
> > > > Feb or March.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, I once purchased a program called "secure IE" -- a web
browser
> > put
> > > > out by McAfee that is supposed to guard against all the malicious
> hacks
> > > > some
> > > > people put on web pages. But it was not accessible at all, and I
went
> > > > back
> > > > to IE. So MSAA is important.
> > > > But the proof is in the pudding.
> > > > If anyone does try the windows version of firefox with a screen
please
> > > > post
> > > > and let me know what you find -- and I'll do the same!
> > > > Take care!
> > > > --le
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bundy, Keith" <Keith.Bundy@xxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <vicug-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:00 PM
> > > > Subject: [guispeak] Firefox 1.0
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Below is an article that appeared a few days ago. I am wondering
if
> > > >> anyone has already tried this program with a screen reader.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Free Firefox 1.0 ready to battle MSIE
> > > >>
> > > >> By Joseph Menn
> > > >> Los Angeles Times
> > > >>
> > > >> published: 11/9/2004
> > > >>
> > > >> Early editions of browser have lured 10 million former Microsoft
> users
> > > >>
> > > >> Get ready for Browser Wars: The Sequel.
> > > >>
> > > >> Six years after Microsoft Corp.'s Internet Explorer defeated
Netscape
> > > >> Navigator in the signature fight of the online age, a direct
> descendant
> > > >> of the pioneering
> > > >> Web browser is exacting a small measure of revenge.
> > > >>
> > > >> The nonprofit Mozilla Foundation today will release Firefox 1.0, a
> free
> > > >> browser based on Netscape's technology but improved through the
years
> > by
> > > >> thousands
> > > >> of volunteer programmers. It's the first version intended for a
wide
> > > >> audience.
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier editions of Firefox attracted millions of users fed up with
> the
> > > >> viruses and spyware that increasingly exploit Internet Explorer's
> flaws
> > > >> to infect
> > > >> computers.
> > > >>
> > > >> After a series of security warnings this year, Explorer's share of
> the
> > > >> U.S. browser market slid from more than 95 percent in June to less
> than
> > > >> 93 percent
> > > >> last month, according to Internet consultant WebSideStory. Most of
> > those
> > > >> computer users went to Firefox.
> > > >>
> > > >> A drop of a couple of percentage points may not sound like much,
but
> > > >> globally, it represents more than 10 million people who have dumped
> the
> > > >> world's largest
> > > >> software maker in favor of an outfit with 10 full-time employees.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's part of a broader move toward so-called open-source software,
> > which
> > > >> has Microsoft on the defensive. In the most visible part of that
> trend,
> > > >> many big
> > > >> corporations and everyday users alike are powering their computers
> with
> > > >> the free operating system Linux, encroaching on Microsoft's
lucrative
> > > >> Windows franchise.
> > > >>
> > > >> Browsers have been free for a long time. But analysts say Firefox
has
> > > >> special significance because it could open many more eyes to the
> > > >> possibilities of
> > > >> open-source software.
> > > >>
> > > >> Users like Firefox because it works about as fast as Explorer, adds
> > > >> features such as multiple-window browsing and presents a less
> tempting
> > > >> target for hackers.
> > > >> Users also can change the way it works, for example, by barring all
> > > >> images so that the text on Web pages appears more quickly. Most but
> not
> > > >> all sites can
> > > >> be visited with Firefox.
> > > >>
> > > >> "It's actually quite intuitive, and it's very fast," said Shekhar
> > > >> Venkataraman, an intensive-care doctor in Pittsburgh who has been
> using
> > > >> the Mozilla browser
> > > >> for more than a year.
> > > >>
> > > >> Milton Blackstone, a retired TV writer and producer, said he turned
> to
> > > >> Firefox after he became fed up with Explorer's frequent unexplained
> > > >> crashes. Although
> > > >> he complained he has had trouble following Web links in e-mails,
> > > >> Blackstone said he was glad he made the switch.
> > > >>
> > > >> "I think it's thought-out," said Blackstone, a resident of the San
> > Diego
> > > >> community of La Jolla. "I have a lot of respect for Mozilla."
> > > >>
> > > >> As with Linux, the complicated computer code powering Firefox is
> freely
> > > >> available for any programmer to examine, improve and pass along.
Fans
> > of
> > > >> open-source
> > > >> software say that sort of continuous review makes the programs
> stronger
> > > >> and more reliable.
> > > >>
> > > >> Because anyone can read the Firefox code, hackers could create
> > malicious
> > > >> programs the way they do with Explorer - and some have. But because
> > > >> thousands of
> > > >> volunteer programmers also can see any potential problems, they can
> > > >> respond quickly to plug security holes.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow," says Eric Raymond,
> > > >> president of the nonprofit Open Source Initiative, which promotes
the
> > > >> development and
> > > >> distribution of open-source software.
> > > >>
> > > >> Firefox grew out of a 1998 project at Netscape Communications Corp.
> to
> > > >> make the browser's underlying code public. It was released in a
> preview
> > > >> version in
> > > >> February and has been downloaded from www.mozilla.org as frequently
> as
> > > >> 250,000 times a day.
> > > >>
> > > >> Keith Bundy
> > > >> Director of Student Development
> > > >> Dakota State University
> > > >> 605-256-5121
> > > >> Email: Keith.Bundy@xxxxxxx
> > > >> http://departments.dsu.edu/bundyk
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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